Abortion
I got this in an email today - from parts unknown. Yes, it's a bit technically incorrect, but the message is what counts, so here it is:
Month One: Mommy, I am only 8 inches long, but I have all my organs. I love the sound of your voice. Every time I hear it, I wave my arms and legs. The sound of your heart beat is my favorite lullaby.
Month Two: Mommy, today I learned how to suck my thumb. If you could see me, you could definitely tell that I am a baby. I'm not big enough to survive outside my home though. It is so nice and warm in here.
Month Three: You know what Mommy, I'm a girl!! I hope that makes you happy. I always want you to be happy. I don't like it when you cry. You sound so sad. It makes me sad too, and I cry with you even though you can't hear me.
Month Four: Mommy, my hair is starting to grow. It is very short and fine, but I will have a lot of it. I spend a lot of my time exercising. I can turn my head and curl my fingers and toes, and stretch my arms and legs. I am becoming quite good at it too.
Month Five: You went to the doctor today. Mommy, he lied to you. He said that I'm not a baby. I am a baby Mommy, your baby. I think and feel. Mommy, what's abortion?
Month Six: I can hear that doctor again. I don't like him. He seems cold and heartless. Something is intruding my home. The doctor called it a needle. Mommy what is it? It burns! Please make him stop! I can't get away from it! Mommy!! HELP me!! No...
Month Seven: Mommy, I am okay. I am in Jesus' arms. He is holding me. He told me about abortion. Why didn't you want me Mommy? We would have been so happy together.
Month Two: Mommy, today I learned how to suck my thumb. If you could see me, you could definitely tell that I am a baby. I'm not big enough to survive outside my home though. It is so nice and warm in here.
Month Three: You know what Mommy, I'm a girl!! I hope that makes you happy. I always want you to be happy. I don't like it when you cry. You sound so sad. It makes me sad too, and I cry with you even though you can't hear me.
Month Four: Mommy, my hair is starting to grow. It is very short and fine, but I will have a lot of it. I spend a lot of my time exercising. I can turn my head and curl my fingers and toes, and stretch my arms and legs. I am becoming quite good at it too.
Month Five: You went to the doctor today. Mommy, he lied to you. He said that I'm not a baby. I am a baby Mommy, your baby. I think and feel. Mommy, what's abortion?
Month Six: I can hear that doctor again. I don't like him. He seems cold and heartless. Something is intruding my home. The doctor called it a needle. Mommy what is it? It burns! Please make him stop! I can't get away from it! Mommy!! HELP me!! No...
Month Seven: Mommy, I am okay. I am in Jesus' arms. He is holding me. He told me about abortion. Why didn't you want me Mommy? We would have been so happy together.
.........................
RIP United States of America
July 1776 - November 2012.
Anonymous said:
Questionable source? It's the Bible.
Questionable source? It's the Bible.
Precisely my point.
As for your next batch of quotes, let's address them individually again, shall we?
Deuteronomy - Sorry, it says he should be delivered to the hand of the avenger of blood, not the mortal executioner.
Numerology - Again, nothing about God granting authority to man to execute someone for murder, just a defining of what murder constitutes.
Exodus - It says if the man is guilty of premeditated murder then you can take him from God's altar that he may die, it still doesn't say that you can kill him for God.
Leviticus - Ah, we're back to the famous and entirely ridiculous eye for an eye & tooth for a tooth argument. I can't speak for Christians, but Jews repudiated this argument thousands of years ago.
Yup, God supports the death penalty, but only by his hand, not yours.
Vladaar said:
I left the mud I used to work on 6dragons to Aurin. Not sure if you met him. He is doing a good job. Take care.
I left the mud I used to work on 6dragons to Aurin. Not sure if you met him. He is doing a good job. Take care.
(I'm not Christian, so I'll start with the non-religious part.) As a matter of fact, I did meet him, shortly after you'd turned 6Dragons over to him. I was pretty surprised, to say the least, when he told me you'd given him 6Dragons, but he does seem like an okay guy from what I've seen so far. Thanks, you too. It really is good to see you again, even if it's just briefly every once in a long while. I hope life's being good to you in the interims.
Yup, God supports the death penalty, but only by his hand, not yours.
Correct for an OT/Torah perspective, however, Jesus changed the entire rule set that men are to live by and unless the ANON takes into account the words of Jesus, which are blatantly clear, his doctrine is worth shit.
I happen to be Jewish, I only have the OT/Torah perspective to go off of. I happen to be Jewish, I only have the OT/Torah perspective to go off of. I know, but we wont hold is against you
*shaking his head* I'm certain some here will, but I do appreciate that most here won't. I'll happily return the favor in kind and in full. 
*shaking his head* I'm certain some here will, but I do appreciate that most here won't. I'll happily return the favor in kind and in full. We could try and convert you Conner, but to do that, we would have to remove part your brain first
I don't know that you'd have to remove part of my brain, but you'd definitely have to find some awfully compelling new information to get me to change my mind, and I can't imagine that it'd be a particularly fun experience for any of us trying to get there.
Anyone who values animals above humans is evil and undeserving of their own life. A phoetus is a living human soul and all who condem it as a mass of cells deserve to burn for an eternity in the lake of fire.
Anyone who values animals above humans is evil and undeserving of their own life. A phoetus is a living human soul and all who condem it as a mass of cells deserve to burn for an eternity in the lake of fire.
Am i the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this statement. One life seems to have more value than another one. Which is kind of typical of the hypocrisy of the pro-life movement. They are happy to be killing people, just as long as its not a fetus. So much for all life being precious.
Edited by The_Fury on Feb 8, 2011 11:53 pm
God himself has decreed this to be true, if you do not beleive in the divine law, you too are undeserving and hold no place in the Book of Life. It is laid down in the laws of Moses that thou shalt not murder. There is no exception for the phoetus. God gives man dominion over the animals to use as man sees fit. They do not have souls as they were not made in the image of I Am. You reject God and Christ both by butchering the innocent unborn.
@anonymous: careful how tightly you hold on to those words. That effectively gives any human the right for instance, to slowly butcher and animal while it is alive. Or also gives human's divine right to cause as many extinctions as they want without consequences because God said it was ok. As for the issue of abortion, I don't really want to get stuck down on it anymore, I think its pretty obvious that discussing the issue doesn't go anywhere and we end up feeling like killing each other.
This is why you fail.
@prettyfly: God gave man dominion over the animals. He gave man the right to do exactly as you say. You understand more than you will admit. I trust that your conscience knows that abortion is evil.
The_Fury said:
Am i the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this statement. One life seems to have more value than another one. Which is kind of typical of the hypocrisy of the pro-life movement. They are happy to be killing people, just as long as its not a fetus. So much for all life being precious.
Anonymous said:
Anyone who values animals above humans is evil and undeserving of their own life. A phoetus is a living human soul and all who condem it as a mass of cells deserve to burn for an eternity in the lake of fire.
Anyone who values animals above humans is evil and undeserving of their own life. A phoetus is a living human soul and all who condem it as a mass of cells deserve to burn for an eternity in the lake of fire.
Am i the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this statement. One life seems to have more value than another one. Which is kind of typical of the hypocrisy of the pro-life movement. They are happy to be killing people, just as long as its not a fetus. So much for all life being precious.
Nope, even the courts in many states here in the US, remarkably enough, seem to see the hypocrisy in that since many of them will rule very harshly against animal abusers on the simple principle that anyone who would harm an animal is very likely to also harm a human without intervention of some sort. I hesitate to go further into the whole right to execute thing with you on this one, but animals have rights too. To the Anonymous poster, I don't believe that anyone here has even come close to so much as implying that animal lives were more valuable than human lives to begin with though. Perhaps a reread is in order?
Anonymous said:
God himself has decreed this to be true, if you do not beleive in the divine law, you too are undeserving and hold no place in the Book of Life. It is laid down in the laws of Moses that thou shalt not murder. There is no exception for the phoetus. God gives man dominion over the animals to use as man sees fit. They do not have souls as they were not made in the image of I Am. You reject God and Christ both by butchering the innocent unborn.
God himself has decreed this to be true, if you do not beleive in the divine law, you too are undeserving and hold no place in the Book of Life. It is laid down in the laws of Moses that thou shalt not murder. There is no exception for the phoetus. God gives man dominion over the animals to use as man sees fit. They do not have souls as they were not made in the image of I Am. You reject God and Christ both by butchering the innocent unborn.
There is also no distinction made in that "Thou shalt not kill" for animals either. God gave dominion over animals to man, but he never said go forth an be cruel and abusive and destructive of his creations either, he just gave us the "right" to take territory wherever we like and to domesticate those animals we saw fit. You're reading into the bible what isn't there. As for rejecting God and Christ both by killing an innocent unborn, maybe you should think through your own statement a bit. Aside from the fact that, as a Jew, I already reject Christ anyway, no one here has claimed to have ever killed an innocent unborn. What has been argued is the law of man regarding a women's right to abortion. Try to stay focused if you must throw your two cents in...
prettyfly said:
@anonymous: careful how tightly you hold on to those words. That effectively gives any human the right for instance, to slowly butcher and animal while it is alive. Or also gives human's divine right to cause as many extinctions as they want without consequences because God said it was ok. As for the issue of abortion, I don't really want to get stuck down on it anymore, I think its pretty obvious that discussing the issue doesn't go anywhere and we end up feeling like killing each other.
@anonymous: careful how tightly you hold on to those words. That effectively gives any human the right for instance, to slowly butcher and animal while it is alive. Or also gives human's divine right to cause as many extinctions as they want without consequences because God said it was ok. As for the issue of abortion, I don't really want to get stuck down on it anymore, I think its pretty obvious that discussing the issue doesn't go anywhere and we end up feeling like killing each other.
No, he's taking it beyond context to try to justify a definition that isn't there. That's what would allow him all the things you're talking about, not what it actually says in the bible.
As for arguing the abortion issues making us feel like killing each other.. no one had said that before this, so if you're feeling that extreme about this, I would strongly suggest you go take a breather and maybe even go down to the gym and work out some of that unhealthy aggression.
Anonymous said:
This is why you fail.
This is why you fail.
You linking a youtube video that's an hour and 17 minutes long is the fail here...
Anonymous said:
God gave man dominion over the animals. He gave man the right to do exactly as you say.
God gave man dominion over the animals. He gave man the right to do exactly as you say.
God most certainly did not give man the right to abuse animals and torture them to death nor to drive them to extinction. If any of the commandments are being violated here it's through you're taking the lord's name in vain by trying to make such claims in his name as an attempt to bear false witness against the Almighty himself.
one cannot bear false witness against the very words of the Almighty Himself. It is you who are twisting words and meaning and coming up with something the Bible does not say. It is you who are in the role of the false prophet against God. That you are unwilling to enlighten yourselves with the video is all the proof one needs to know you are all false witnesses against the Lord God Almighty.
Tell you what, you pay for my internet so I'll have the extra bandwidth to waste on a video that's over an hour long and I'll watch it. Otherwise, sorry, I'm entirely uninterested in enlightening myself to your ludicrous notions at my own expense, and given the way my internet provider handles bandwidth it's a way too high expense at that.
As for my being a false prophet, that's patently ridiculous given that I'm not the one trying to proclaim anything but merely dispute your claims based on the simple and obvious expedient of pointing out that what you're quoting isn't in the material you claim to be quoting from. Nice try though. When you get done with your zealotry, feel free to present some semblance of actual fact to base your claims and we'll all listen. You happen to be very wrong in saying that "one cannot bear false witness against the very words of the Almighty Himself". Not only can it easily be done, but you've just done it yourself when you claimed that He has given us the right to torture animals to death. Perhaps you should go look up the word Dominion. It generally means rule or control or domination, not free reign to torture and kill.
As for my being a false prophet, that's patently ridiculous given that I'm not the one trying to proclaim anything but merely dispute your claims based on the simple and obvious expedient of pointing out that what you're quoting isn't in the material you claim to be quoting from. Nice try though. When you get done with your zealotry, feel free to present some semblance of actual fact to base your claims and we'll all listen. You happen to be very wrong in saying that "one cannot bear false witness against the very words of the Almighty Himself". Not only can it easily be done, but you've just done it yourself when you claimed that He has given us the right to torture animals to death. Perhaps you should go look up the word Dominion. It generally means rule or control or domination, not free reign to torture and kill.
Santorum drew fire last month for questioning why President Obama, the nation's first black president, is denying civil rights to fetuses by supporting abortion rights. He told the Christian Broadcasting Network that for decades, slavery allowed blacks to be treated like property. He said fetuses are denied the right to life because they are considered property.
Santorum for president! Stop the evil of child murder! A phoetus is not property!
Conner, you are a false prophet and a heretic and God will deal with you in His own way. You won't like how it turns out. I have quoted directly from the divine word of God Himself and you have blasphemed that word by claiming it to be lies.
Oh just stop it, Anonymous, you're making us all laugh at you too hard, someone's bound to pull something.
(The least you could do is learn to spell as well as the folks who you're quoting. The word is Fetus, not Phoetus.
)
You've misquoted a book that was written by men, not the divine word of God himself, that you've somehow been led to believe is not just the truth but the only truth. It's really sad, honestly. Unless you're planning to further blaspheme yourself by claiming that you were actually present when God himself set those words to print... So far, you're just making a fool of yourself by continuing to argue a position that your own words demonstrate is untenable. If anything, you should probably go re-read your last few posts to see what's wrong with them, or perhaps go consult a priest about your beliefs that God has personally granted all of mankind the right to torture his creations to death without any semblance of provocation.. after you get done being laughed out of your favorite church with that, go consult a psychologist about such beliefs and see if you can convince them to keep you out of jail and out of any psychiatric in-patient facilities.
As for how God will deal with me, I'm one of the chosen ones. If I've been wrong about things in my life and God feels I've sinned beyond my allotted limits then, according to my religious beliefs, I'd basically get recycled and have to take another stab at life. If I haven't, then I'll be at God's side chuckling over his having dealt with you accordingly for being a gentile who couldn't even handle interpreting the words your church handed you. Suffice it to say, I'm quite secure and comfortable in my beliefs and in what the likely outcome of them are. Can you say the same?
Regardless of your reasons for your stance on the issue of abortion, have fun with your witch hunt. (Preferably elsewhere.)
(The least you could do is learn to spell as well as the folks who you're quoting. The word is Fetus, not Phoetus.
)
You've misquoted a book that was written by men, not the divine word of God himself, that you've somehow been led to believe is not just the truth but the only truth. It's really sad, honestly. Unless you're planning to further blaspheme yourself by claiming that you were actually present when God himself set those words to print... So far, you're just making a fool of yourself by continuing to argue a position that your own words demonstrate is untenable. If anything, you should probably go re-read your last few posts to see what's wrong with them, or perhaps go consult a priest about your beliefs that God has personally granted all of mankind the right to torture his creations to death without any semblance of provocation.. after you get done being laughed out of your favorite church with that, go consult a psychologist about such beliefs and see if you can convince them to keep you out of jail and out of any psychiatric in-patient facilities.
As for how God will deal with me, I'm one of the chosen ones. If I've been wrong about things in my life and God feels I've sinned beyond my allotted limits then, according to my religious beliefs, I'd basically get recycled and have to take another stab at life. If I haven't, then I'll be at God's side chuckling over his having dealt with you accordingly for being a gentile who couldn't even handle interpreting the words your church handed you. Suffice it to say, I'm quite secure and comfortable in my beliefs and in what the likely outcome of them are. Can you say the same?
Regardless of your reasons for your stance on the issue of abortion, have fun with your witch hunt. (Preferably elsewhere.)
Pretty good run, anonymous troll.
Since I'm weighing in on things, a couple of comments from the token agnostic:
1. Yeah, that original posts is amazingly offensive. Emotional trolling indeed.
2. I can't begin to tell you how totally unimpressed I am by religious arguments on this or any other topic. If you want to persuade me of anything, you're going to need to use something different and more reality-based. Speaking as someone who's keenly aware of the whole First Amendment thing and the whole protection of the minority from the tyrrany of the majority thing, you can take your attempts to impose your religious values on everyone and go straight to hell.
3. Which is to say that on this as on many other topics, how you choose to live your lives is up to you, and if that's how you want to do it, great, you go do that thing, but trying to impose some crazy Christian morality on everyone is every single bit as bad as crazy Islamists trying to do the same thing.
I also find it quite interesting that the stance by conservatives in general seems to be all about personal liberty until it comes to something in the bedroom, and then oh boy we'd better ban that shit right quick.
4. Too, I'm keenly aware that, as a male, and one not in any danger of having any children any time soon, that my stake in this thing is not particularly high, and I find it the height of hubris to assume that I have the knowledge to impose any set of restrictions on the practice at all, let alone the draconian ones generally proposed. For that matter, I am keenly aware that this thing, as with so many other things, is much better above ground and safely regulated and supervised and practiced by legitimate doctors, because you WILL get back alley abortions, and they WILL kill teenage girls, and that's even worse than what we've got.
5. Which is all to say that I'm pro-choice, and pro-for serious non-abstinance based sex ed to boot. All that said, I don't really anticipate a situation where I'd ever advise my partner to get an abortion, though, as I say, I can't really know everything, now can I.
6. When in doubt, I find myself listening to Conner on the subject, as he appears to know up from down quite well. Also, you seem to have led an interesting life, dude. Every time you tell a story, something new and interesting pops out.
Anyway, done now. Not really interested in having a debate, so you can feel free to let this die out now.
Since I'm weighing in on things, a couple of comments from the token agnostic:
1. Yeah, that original posts is amazingly offensive. Emotional trolling indeed.
2. I can't begin to tell you how totally unimpressed I am by religious arguments on this or any other topic. If you want to persuade me of anything, you're going to need to use something different and more reality-based. Speaking as someone who's keenly aware of the whole First Amendment thing and the whole protection of the minority from the tyrrany of the majority thing, you can take your attempts to impose your religious values on everyone and go straight to hell.
3. Which is to say that on this as on many other topics, how you choose to live your lives is up to you, and if that's how you want to do it, great, you go do that thing, but trying to impose some crazy Christian morality on everyone is every single bit as bad as crazy Islamists trying to do the same thing.
I also find it quite interesting that the stance by conservatives in general seems to be all about personal liberty until it comes to something in the bedroom, and then oh boy we'd better ban that shit right quick.
4. Too, I'm keenly aware that, as a male, and one not in any danger of having any children any time soon, that my stake in this thing is not particularly high, and I find it the height of hubris to assume that I have the knowledge to impose any set of restrictions on the practice at all, let alone the draconian ones generally proposed. For that matter, I am keenly aware that this thing, as with so many other things, is much better above ground and safely regulated and supervised and practiced by legitimate doctors, because you WILL get back alley abortions, and they WILL kill teenage girls, and that's even worse than what we've got.
5. Which is all to say that I'm pro-choice, and pro-for serious non-abstinance based sex ed to boot. All that said, I don't really anticipate a situation where I'd ever advise my partner to get an abortion, though, as I say, I can't really know everything, now can I.
6. When in doubt, I find myself listening to Conner on the subject, as he appears to know up from down quite well. Also, you seem to have led an interesting life, dude. Every time you tell a story, something new and interesting pops out.
Anyway, done now. Not really interested in having a debate, so you can feel free to let this die out now.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Conner the chosen one. Heard it all now. Your pride will be your downfall. Your failure to accept Christ will mean your death in the eyes of God. For it is only throgh Christ that you may find salvation.
To Dwip. It is not I who am the majority anymore. It is you godless heathens who are now tha majority. You can take your secular hedonism and stuff it and stop imposing your lack of morals on my children while falsely claiming to protect my rights. It is your kind who have led us to the brink of ruin in the world. The disease of liberalism and secularism. It is you who are wielding a tyranny of the majority against my right to practice my religion and to give witness to the glory of God Almighty in any way I see fit. Yet you defend the Muslim who preaches hatred and death from the same persecution.
To say that Christians are crazy like the followers of the false god Allah is to be utterly ignorant of our values and beleifs and every bit as insulting as calling a phoetus a mass of worthless cells.
Conservatives are entirely consistent. We fight for the liberty of the unborn in addition to the rest of you. All men are created equal and are given the right to life. God did not make exception for the innocent unborn. You cannot claim to love liberty or love life while advocating the slaughter of the innocent under the banner of being pro-choice. You are one of the pro-death supporters as Samson called them.
It is truly the end times where evil is seen as good and the good are condemned as evil. All is as God has said it would be. Praise be to the Almighty. I shall pray for you all this night and hope you all change your wicked ways before it is too late.
To Dwip. It is not I who am the majority anymore. It is you godless heathens who are now tha majority. You can take your secular hedonism and stuff it and stop imposing your lack of morals on my children while falsely claiming to protect my rights. It is your kind who have led us to the brink of ruin in the world. The disease of liberalism and secularism. It is you who are wielding a tyranny of the majority against my right to practice my religion and to give witness to the glory of God Almighty in any way I see fit. Yet you defend the Muslim who preaches hatred and death from the same persecution.
To say that Christians are crazy like the followers of the false god Allah is to be utterly ignorant of our values and beleifs and every bit as insulting as calling a phoetus a mass of worthless cells.
Conservatives are entirely consistent. We fight for the liberty of the unborn in addition to the rest of you. All men are created equal and are given the right to life. God did not make exception for the innocent unborn. You cannot claim to love liberty or love life while advocating the slaughter of the innocent under the banner of being pro-choice. You are one of the pro-death supporters as Samson called them.
It is truly the end times where evil is seen as good and the good are condemned as evil. All is as God has said it would be. Praise be to the Almighty. I shall pray for you all this night and hope you all change your wicked ways before it is too late.
Good lord. I've been trying to stay out of this on the hopes that you guys were having a good discussion, only to pop in and find out some jackass has been trolling the post for the last page or two. I'm not going to get into any of what's been said back and forth because frankly responses from both sides had me raging away before I even started typing this up, and I've already deleted the text twice as it is.
Clearly this topic was a bad idea all around. This is just all kinds of stupid and wrong that it's become such an utter waste of space. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm giving serious thought to locking this one out and forgetting it ever happened. Along with NEVER opening up another topic on this subject here again.
Clearly this topic was a bad idea all around. This is just all kinds of stupid and wrong that it's become such an utter waste of space. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm giving serious thought to locking this one out and forgetting it ever happened. Along with NEVER opening up another topic on this subject here again.
Dwip said:
When in doubt, I find myself listening to Conner on the subject, as he appears to know up from down quite well. Also, you seem to have led an interesting life, dude. Every time you tell a story, something new and interesting pops out.
When in doubt, I find myself listening to Conner on the subject, as he appears to know up from down quite well. Also, you seem to have led an interesting life, dude. Every time you tell a story, something new and interesting pops out.
Thanks.
Yeah, it's been a VERY interesting 40 years so far.
Anonymous said:
For it is only throgh Christ that you may find salvation.
For it is only throgh Christ that you may find salvation.
For it is only through spell-check that you may find salvation.
As much as I appreciate the humor factor in your posts, you're really the butt of your own jokes here, I suspect, far more than you realize.
Samson said:
Clearly this topic was a bad idea all around. This is just all kinds of stupid and wrong that it's become such an utter waste of space. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm giving serious thought to locking this one out and forgetting it ever happened. Along with NEVER opening up another topic on this subject here again.
Clearly this topic was a bad idea all around. This is just all kinds of stupid and wrong that it's become such an utter waste of space. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm giving serious thought to locking this one out and forgetting it ever happened. Along with NEVER opening up another topic on this subject here again.
I'll just second Dwip's sentiment on this one. I'm not going to argue for maintaining it.
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