Empire of the Iguanadons

Maybe it's not for me to understand. Perhaps I've missed something. Could be I'm just too old for this shit. I don't know. Why is it people take such pride and pleasure in making people who invest their time and money in running internet sites so miserable? What is it about these people that they've deluded themselves to the point of thinking that they're entitled by divine decree to come to your forum/website/whatever and antagonize you just for the sake of antagonizing you? I'm sure anyone who knows what's happened over the last couple of days will probably realize this, but hell. I need to vent.

A while back, Cratylus and I were engaged in a debate on Topmudsites.com about the merits of moderation on forums. It grew progressively heated, and Cratylus resorted to antagonizing the staff, making charges of "censorship" and other such things. When they asked him to cool it and take it to PMs, he apparently refused. He chose to continue the thread, and I figured I'd engage him in the debate. The moderation debate stemmed from them having deleted something of his that was off-topic and at least partially inflammatory. It's their site, their policy, he chose to go ballistic. I took up the side defending moderator action as justified, he chose to assume the position they were Nazis or some such for daring to edit or delete anything. Since it's not a government run website, they have that right. Eventually Cratylus took things too far and they banned him for it. I don't know Lasher from Adam, but in my few dealings with him he seemed like a reasonable enough person. I don't think they banned lightly.

Move forward in time a bit. A few weeks ago, Cratylus decided to come chum the waters over at MudBytes: http://www.mudbytes.net/index.php?a=topic&t=543
The "Admin Hat" thread as it's called was the result of splitting off topic crap from another thread discussing the merits of an area conversion system. The debate in the original thread got heated, it was temporarily locked, and the contents split. Then the original thread was unlocked. Well in this new thread Cratylus decided for reasons unknown that he wanted to play the role of "free speech crusader" and started antagonizing the staff for no real reason. After it became clear he was only interested in publicly trashing the site and antagonizing us, he was asked to take things to private messages. Which he did, and it was discussed there. We had figured the matter settled and moved on. Nobody got banned.

Davion read a news report somewhere about a man who got tasered by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. In it, the man died, so there's some controversy on the use of force by the RCMP. Being a media story, we likely only have partial information. He figured on posting to the general forum looking for opinions on what people thought of the video. Several people watched it. Many of us commented on it, myself included. The discussion seemed to be going peacefully enough, until Cratylus dropped in and accused Scandum of racism and sexism for having mentioned some statistical facts regarding blacks and women.

Now, I'm sure anyone reading this realizes that posting factual information about race, gender, religion, political affiliation, sexual orientation, the media, illegal immigration, or the cops, is bound to cause trouble, bringing forth those who wield charges of racism and such as a bludgeon to silence opinion. Since this thread covered the media, the cops, race, politics, and gender, it was probably hopeless by this point. Perhaps it should have been locked. But it wasn't, even with Cratylus stirring things up it appeared to remain civil enough to let it go.

That ended when Cratylus decided he wanted another bite at the "admin hat". Since I was on at the time I decided enough was enough, and I asked him to drop it. It might have been in forceful terms, but so be it. He'd already worn thin our patience with him. He appeared to leave it at that. Tyche even posted a humorous "Don't tase me bro" link on youtube, before Cratylus pulled the most moronic thing I've seen from him yet. He then proceeded to accuse me or some other shadowy hidden admin of editing his post. So I told him to go cool off for a few days and moved him into our trolls group - a group previously only occupied by Locke. I'm sure I need not explain why in Locke's case. This group disallows members in it from posting, editing their sig, profile, avatar, and their ability to upload or download files. About all they can do is use the private messenger. It was designed with the intent that anyone in it could still communicate with the admins to discuss what had happened.

Conner posted a message taking extreme offense at what Scandum said, which while I understand his reasoning for doing so, only invited making the flamewar worse by a factor of 500. Kiasyn locked the thread.

It didn't end there. Cratylus popped up on the intermud network and decided to sling shit there instead. Didn't matter to me, he did what he did and we acted upon it. For reasons he'll remain the only one to know, he figured he'd generate an image file of his post where he appeared to be letting it go. In this image file, he felt the need to forge an addition to his usual signature, making it appear as though he posted a link to one of his amusing little "you're a nazi bastard" kind of things like he did for TMS when he got banned there. Using this forged image, he proceeded to blast me for editing his post, and tried to get me to admit I'd done so. It obviously didn't work.

It didn't end there either. I received some emails from a couple of people Cratylus had contacted indicating he was planning to use our private messaging system to continue stirring up more trouble. Honestly, I can't figure why he'd keep up such an effort for this, but the end result was that he's now been banned until further notice.

It didn't end there though. Apparently he's launched a crusade on TMC to brand the administration of the site as Nazis, censorship supporters, racists, sexists, bigots, and generally intolerant assholes. Using his falsified image to bolster his case. Going further still to say that I threatened to ban Conner in the thread for having posted his response. Going yet further to say that I was supporting Scandum's racist views when Scandum himself never posited any such thing. Apparently Hades Kane thinks Cratylus is some kind of uber-hero, and that we're the Empire itself or something. My personal conclusion is that Hades is only angry at having been called out for his abuse of Square Enix's copyrighted material, but that's a matter for another time.

All in all, Cratylus lays out this case:

* He raised a policy issue. ( Admin Hat thread )
* He was beat down for it and forcibly silenced. ( Admin Hat thread )
* He enters another off-topic thread, claiming to have been the victim. ( Taser thread )
* He accuses the administration of editing his post. ( Taser thread )
* He runs off to TMC to declare he's been shot down by the evil one himself. ( Taser thread )

My response:

* Cratylus raised a policy issue.
* We as administrators asked him to take it to private messages. Which he did. It got discussed. Nothing productive came of it.
* Cratylus entered the taser thread, opening by calling Scandum a bigoted asswipe. The remainder of his post was actually a very good and reasoned argument about how there wasn't enough information available to make any conclusions one way or another about the tasing incident.
* People ignored his main argument, instead focusing on the racism charges. The thread is already doomed here :(
* Cratylus decided the timing is right to play the victim of a terrible suppression.
* Cratylus appears to get the hint that we're not interested in being antagonized about the Admin Hat thread.
* Cratylus throws in a baseless editing accusation, at which point he's placed in the trolls group.
* Cratylus presents his forged image as evidence on the intermud network.
* I tell him I don't believe him.
* He attempts to twist my words into something they're not.
* I declare that it's his opinion, he's entitled to it, and nothing more came of it.
* He runs to TMC to display another "badge of honor" for being suppressed by the dark side.
* Cratylus becomes banee #2 after word comes that he's planning to abuse the PM system at the site for his agenda.

So what's the conclusion here? Nothing. Cratylus is a delusional egomaniac who thinks the world is out to get him, and he's bound and determined to prove it. His accusation against us and his prior actions in the other thread were the only considerations involved in the result. This is not a free speech issue. Regardless of what people think, Davion, Kiasyn, Asylumius, and myself are not the government. We're simply four people who are running a site trying to offer something for the general community to enjoy. Like other people, we're only human, and we have very little tolerance for antagonistic egomaniacal assholes. If he'd been a houseguest at a party hosted by me, and he took up the attitude he displayed on the site, he'd have received a punch in the mouth and been thrown out and told never to come back again. Banning him from the site will have to suffice.

People like this make me question why I still bother doing any of this. It's made me seriously consider dropping my involvement with MudBytes, and pretty much anything else to do with MUDs. I just don't get why Cratylus and those like him feel it's necessary to try and tear people down for their own amusement. There is no sense of community anymore, no sense of fellowship. All anyone cares about now is how to attack the next guy and push him out of the way. All people seem to enjoy is "how can I get away with THIS today?". It didn't used to be like this, and it doesn't need to continue to be like this. The internet, and mudding, used to be something people could enjoy and pass time with. But not anymore. The community has died, leaving pockets of life scattered about who's sole function anymore is to destroy what remains. In another 10 years nobody but these types of people will be left, and they'll be lamenting what happened - not realizing they caused it.
.........................
McCain-Palin 2008
http://www.johnmccain.com/

Mechaterro said:
My favorite part is when Samson was like, "omg noe photoshopped signiturez."

Perhaps on an even sadder note, now people are resorting to just plain making things up out of nowhere. It's bad enough when egomaniacal jackasses like Cratylus fabricate scenarios because they can't handle taking responsibility for their own actions, but it's 10 times worse when people who have nothing at all to do with it just make things up out of thin air.

Apparently people want so desperately to believe that anyone claiming their "rights" have been violated can't be wrong that they'll invent lies to support the position.

Samson said:
It didn't end there though. Apparently he's launched a crusade on TMC to brand the administration of the site as Nazis, censorship supporters, racists, sexists, bigots, and generally intolerant assholes.

This was expected, was it not?

Samson said:
* Cratylus entered the taser thread, opening by calling Scandum a bigoted asswipe. The remainder of his post was actually a very good and reasoned argument about how there wasn't enough information available to make any conclusions one way or another about the tasing incident.
* People ignored his main argument, instead focusing on the racism charges. The thread is already doomed here :(

The sad part is, despite his posting style, personality, whatever, most of his posts on the sites I follow seem to follow a pattern similiar to this. He presents some really good arguments but tends to have them lost within the cover of ...other bits....

Samson said:
If he'd been a houseguest at a party hosted by me, and he took up the attitude he displayed on the site, he'd have received a punch in the mouth and been thrown out and told never to come back again. Banning him from the site will have to suffice

Unfortunately, in this age, that'd get you charged with assault and battery, aggrevated assault in the best case scenario.. but the point is valid, it's your house, he's a guest, if nothing else he should remain reasonably respectful to his host or leave the premises.

Samson said:
People like this make me question why I still bother doing any of this. It's made me seriously consider dropping my involvement with MudBytes, and pretty much anything else to do with MUDs. I just don't get why Cratylus and those like him feel it's necessary to try and tear people down for their own amusement. There is no sense of community anymore, no sense of fellowship. All anyone cares about now is how to attack the next guy and push him out of the way. All people seem to enjoy is "how can I get away with THIS today?". It didn't used to be like this, and it doesn't need to continue to be like this. The internet, and mudding, used to be something people could enjoy and pass time with. But not anymore. The community has died, leaving pockets of life scattered about who's sole function anymore is to destroy what remains. In another 10 years nobody but these types of people will be left, and they'll be lamenting what happened - not realizing they caused it.

Well, that's certainly a dire prediction, but you know as well as I do that, as frustrating as our growing troll community can be, they are still a minority. It's not really that none of us have that sense of community or fellowship anymore, though I do know at least one who'd vehemently argue that those never did exist in the mud admin/builder/coder segment of the internet. *shrug* To each his own opinions.

As for the rest of the above blog.. *sigh* ...all I'm willing to say at this point is that MudBytes was created for very good reasons and started out on a great footing, it still has the makings of a terrific site but it needs to, in my opinion, stay focused on directly mud related stuff because then even the "usual suspects" tend to stay helpful, friendly, knowledgable, and, most importantly, out of trouble. So I still stand behind MudBytes as the best site available for what it was intended for, it's just had a few threads that maybe help demonstrate that a bit of moderation can be more than appropriate.

Hopefully, I've worded that all carefully enough.

Bah, who am I kidding? I've still got more to say.. As far as Cratylus himself goes, I refuse to accept that he's entirely and solely at fault, when he's not playing the troll I've seen some very good arguments and even helpful information come from him in the past on several sites. It's really a shame to have him lost to MudBytes, but, well, it is also understandable. Even if he feels that he's entirely in the right, there's a certain measure of self-control (self-discipline?) that is required in order to make your point without crossing lines...

With regard to Scandum's posts and the threat of my being banned and the thread that all stemmed from.. for now, I'm sticking with an official "no comment" because while I have calmed down, frankly I'm still a bit hotter than I want to be when/if I deal with any of that. Well, I will say that, for the record, there are several places one can go to see what was actually said in ichat on the IMC network by Samson to me and all of them basically show the same thing. I was not threatened with being banned for my post, but it was suggested that I might need a cooldown period because, initially, it was interpreted that I was making an implied legal threat, which I was not and that cooldown period has not been forced upon me though I am unlikely to be posting much there for a few days anyway because, well, I am still angry about Scandum's remarks but I have other venues where I can vent a bit more privately.

Damn, forgot to say that I thought that was a great graphic you found for this blog entry, Samson.. and now I see you snuck an extra comment in while I was writing my huge comment.. so, in response to the comment here that beat mine to the presses, I agree, that is rather pathetic that someone feels the need to gain a moment of recognition by making up things to claim as quotes for you in this. I hope that was posted more for the sake of their five seconds of fame than because the alleged victim can't be wrong. :(

As far as Cratylus himself goes, I refuse to accept that he's entirely and solely at fault,

He is when it comes to making the libelous accusation that we edited his post. That's what got him put in the troll group. His further fabrication of evidence combined with being told he was planning to abuse the PM system to further his agenda is what led to it becoming a full ban. If we were in it to censor the living shit out of everyone then the site would feel like you were in a children's book where the whole thing had been sanitized to protect their fragile little minds.

As far as Scandum, if he actually believes women are inferior "just because", then yes. He's a jackass. If he actually does support the viewpoints of organizations like the KKK and stormfront.org then he's a pariah that should be shunned by anyone calling themselves civil. But does that mean he should be silenced and denied a right to speak? Apparently some people think it does. Should I be silenced and denied the right to speak for some of the things I've put on this very blog? Some people seem to think so. When we reach that point and the liberals come to you and tell you what you've got to say is offensive and intolerant and you need to shut up or go to jail, don't say I didn't warn you.

Regarding my comment about your implied legal threat, it was said in anger. I apologize for that, and hopefully it hasn't created any ill will between us.

If you have more to say, this would be the place. If nothing else, you've seen that this blog can generate some serious heat and I've never censored any of it. I posted this here because posting it on the forum itself would only have led to a whole lot of unnecessary crap being thrown back and forth because nobody would have stopped to see the situation for what it was since they're all blinded by their perceived oppression.

This whole nasty mess makes me really glad I'm not the one holding the purse strings, because that would have made it an easy decision to stop wasting the money.

Samson said:
He is when it comes to making the libelous accusation that we edited his post. That's what got him put in the troll group. His further fabrication of evidence combined with being told he was planning to abuse the PM system to further his agenda is what led to it becoming a full ban.

Yes, for those things, you're right, the blame definitely rests squarely upon his shoulders.

Samson said:
If we were in it to censor the living shit out of everyone then the site would feel like you were in a children's book where the whole thing had been sanitized to protect their fragile little minds.

I don't know.. ever read the Brother's Grimm? ;)

Samson said:
As far as Scandum, if he actually believes women are inferior "just because", then yes. He's a jackass. If he actually does support the viewpoints of organizations like the KKK and stormfront.org then he's a pariah that should be shunned by anyone calling themselves civil. But does that mean he should be silenced and denied a right to speak? Apparently some people think it does. Should I be silenced and denied the right to speak for some of the things I've put on this very blog? Some people seem to think so. When we reach that point and the liberals come to you and tell you what you've got to say is offensive and intolerant and you need to shut up or go to jail, don't say I didn't warn you.

I can't account for "some people" but certain comments don't belong on a site like MudBytes regardless of freedom of speech and all that, it's a privately run site with rules for the protection of the site, it's staff, and it's visitors. I will point out that I never asked that he be banned nor even have his posting priviliges removed, but I have yet to see any indication of any semblence to an apology for his comments nor even an indication from him that he doesn't mean them the way they were interpreted or believe them himself, so I'm letting my opinion of him be based on what he's showing me it should be.

Samson said:
Regarding my comment about your implied legal threat, it was said in anger. I apologize for that, and hopefully it hasn't created any ill will between us.

No, at that point in time, we were both angry and if you had 'enforced a cooldown' it would've made scant difference as I have mostly avoided the site today for fear of seeing what I fully expect from the thread Tyche started last night... or was that this morning. (*sigh* I really need to get back on a semi-human schedule....)

Samson said:
If you have more to say, this would be the place. If nothing else, you've seen that this blog can generate some serious heat and I've never censored any of it. I posted this here because posting it on the forum itself would only have led to a whole lot of unnecessary crap being thrown back and forth because nobody would have stopped to see the situation for what it was since they're all blinded by their perceived oppression.

I'll agree with this one too, this is a much more appropriate place than MudBytes was. But I suspect anything else I might have to say presently would only defeat the concept of a cooldown period. ;) Unfortunately, I fear Tyche has managed to create that same crap slinging contest on MudBytes anyway judging from the bits and pieces I've been seeing in my RSS feed.

Samson said:
This whole nasty mess makes me really glad I'm not the one holding the purse strings, because that would have made it an easy decision to stop wasting the money.

While I can certainly sympathize with the sentiment, I don't think you're nearly that impulsive or hot headed. Either way though, I do still believe in MudBytes, it's just that a few of the members there give me cause for concern from time to time.

I can't account for "some people" but certain comments don't belong on a site like MudBytes regardless of freedom of speech and all that, it's a privately run site with rules for the protection of the site, it's staff, and it's visitors. I will point out that I never asked that he be banned nor even have his posting priviliges removed, but I have yet to see any indication of any semblence to an apology for his comments nor even an indication from him that he doesn't mean them the way they were interpreted or believe them himself, so I'm letting my opinion of him be based on what he's showing me it should be.

It's a privately run site, yes. As such, those running it decide what does and doesn't belong there. Scandum was pressing the line, damn close to be sure, but that's just how he is. He got taken to task for it, though I maintain it never would have gone that far had Cratylus not goaded him into it.

Also, to be fair to him, he never got the chance to post an apology on the thread since Kiasyn locked it before that could happen. His further posts indicate he's been left with the impression he's next. Which isn't true. So he might well be afraid to broach the issue with you at this point.

Tyche's post was just typical Tyche rhetoric. Most of the respondents didn't even get the point until Brinson read the taser thread and completely ignored what got Cratylus banned and instead lept to the suppression argument, even going so far as to assume he'd have been banned.

I suppose some good will come of it. Cratylus will get his draconian posting policy he's been clamoring for. Enforcement of which will necessarily lead to more people getting punished, which will further his agenda of turning us into the supreme assholes he wants the world to see us as. Which is exactly what trolls do.

Well, I'll tell you, in my experience as a moderator, shit like this is forgotten in two weeks. Basically all the troll does is riles up the elements that like to live on the edge anyway. It won't be long before they find something else to whine about and the whole ordeal is forgotten.

Best thing to do with trolls is simply ban and ignore them and the ruckus they cause. It always seems like that's a bad idea, but trust me, it all goes away anyway.

Whir, I seriously hope you're right. The only people raising a shitstorm so far are the "usual suspects" in mudding circles, and it appears that Cratylus has had this planned all along anyway: http://social.mudconnect.com/lobby/journal_index?id=218

So score one for the trolls I guess. We've been well and truly played.

Conner said:

Samson said:
This whole nasty mess makes me really glad I'm not the one holding the purse strings, because that would have made it an easy decision to stop wasting the money.

While I can certainly sympathize with the sentiment, I don't think you're nearly that impulsive or hot headed. Either way though, I do still believe in MudBytes, it's just that a few of the members there give me cause for concern from time to time.

It wouldn't be an impulsive or hot headed decision though. It's frustrating and disappointing to try and do much of anything in the MUD community anymore when all people care about is tearing down other people. At some point there's a trigger event that makes you stop and think, why bother? Between Cratylus' now obviously deliberate plan and the implications by others that we shouldn't have the right to participate in our own creation, it's enough to make me wonder why I keep it up. Like I just said to Hades Kane, revenge makes people do stupid things sometimes and apparently Cratylus intends to destroy the site along with our reputations in the process. One notes he doesn't have the balls to come here and make his false accusations, he has to hide behind Icculus' apathy on TMC to do it.

Oh well. I needed an excuse to finish fixing the AFKMud code. I should probably thank Cratylus for generating a reason to do so.

Samson said:
Also, to be fair to him, he never got the chance to post an apology on the thread since Kiasyn locked it before that could happen. His further posts indicate he's been left with the impression he's next. Which isn't true. So he might well be afraid to broach the issue with you at this point.

In fairness, I'll grant that may be true, I've only read the first so many characters of each post in the new thread by Tyche and I certainly don't know what Scandum's thinking.

Samson said:
Tyche's post was just typical Tyche rhetoric. Most of the respondents didn't even get the point until Brinson read the taser thread and completely ignored what got Cratylus banned and instead lept to the suppression argument, even going so far as to assume he'd have been banned.

No argument there, I expected as much from Tyche and haven't read the bulk of the subsequent posts yet, so I'll take your word for that part of it. At least for now.

Samson said:
I suppose some good will come of it. Cratylus will get his draconian posting policy he's been clamoring for. Enforcement of which will necessarily lead to more people getting punished, which will further his agenda of turning us into the supreme assholes he wants the world to see us as. Which is exactly what trolls do.

While I agree that it's a shame to let it lead to that, in some regards a bit more draconian moderation wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, MudBytes, to date, has been far more lax about moderation than any other mud community forums I know of, and while most of the members seem to be there for mutual benefit, we have managed to attract a few who demonstrate routinely everywhere they go that they occassionally need to be thumped in the head to be reminded there are rules.

Whir said:
Well, I'll tell you, in my experience as a moderator, shit like this is forgotten in two weeks. Basically all the troll does is riles up the elements that like to live on the edge anyway. It won't be long before they find something else to whine about and the whole ordeal is forgotten.

Best thing to do with trolls is simply ban and ignore them and the ruckus they cause. It always seems like that's a bad idea, but trust me, it all goes away anyway.

From my own experience, that's usually true enough, though in the mud community they do seem a bit more common than in some other communities. *shrug*

In any event, let me ask this of those who would know better than I, has the banishment of Cratylus from topmudsites significantly impacted Lasher's forums in a negative way?

Samson said:
The only people raising a shitstorm so far are the "usual suspects" in mudding circles

Well, that much I expected as much as Tyche, and I'm glad to hear that it's not any of the impressionable newbies to the community, hopefully they'll pick up better habits.

Samson said:
it appears that Cratylus has had this planned all along anyway: http://social.mudconnect.com/lobby/journal_index?id=218

So score one for the trolls I guess. We've been well and truly played.

I'm not even sure I wanted to know that.. but given that I generally do read most of what happens at TMCnet, I'm surprised that I hadn't caught that one previously.

Samson said:
It wouldn't be an impulsive or hot headed decision though. It's frustrating and disappointing to try and do much of anything in the MUD community anymore when all people care about is tearing down other people. At some point there's a trigger event that makes you stop and think, why bother?

I really do try to be an optimist, but I've been justly called cynical before. Suffice it to say, I can very much relate to that sentiment, and even within my own mud I am sometimes faced with that feeling too... players can be real pricks sometimes, even worse than most admins I know. But generally, I find that, if I take a deep breath and look to others in my circle, there are folks who regularly disprove that for me and help me keep going. Want an example to help you through it? Look at Remcon or Vladaar.

Samson said:
and the implications by others that we shouldn't have the right to participate in our own creation

*sigh* I really don't want to read that thread, do I? :(

Samson said:
Oh well. I needed an excuse to finish fixing the AFKMud code. I should probably thank Cratylus for generating a reason to do so.

*L* Well, you had said in your blog over at MudDomain that you were feeling that you lacked motivation to code lately. ;D
Oh! That reminds me, I meant to post over at QSFP's forums that a member of one of my forums had asked the other day how come there was no preview button for the edit post function even though there was one for the quick reply box and the new post editor...

In any event, let me ask this of those who would know better than I, has the banishment of Cratylus from topmudsites significantly impacted Lasher's forums in a negative way?

No. In fact from what I can see, without his constant agitation, his ban had the desired affect. They got rid of a troublemaker and have a more useful community as a result. There's a certain hint in his TMCNet journal that he ended up with the same kind of unproductive result with TMS as we had with him in PMs. Perhaps they were the wiser ones in banning him before it got worse. Hindsight.

And no, I suspect when you finally do get around to reading the thread Tyche started you'll be less than happy to have done so. Though David stopped short of actually saying it, what he's proposing is essentially that we become the thought police and ban ourselves from participation in our own forums.

Oh! That reminds me, I meant to post over at QSFP's forums that a member of one of my forums had asked the other day how come there was no preview button for the edit post function even though there was one for the quick reply box and the new post editor...

Oversight on someone's part probably. I'm not exactly in the mood to touch the QSFP code right now though, so if you could go ahead and post something about it there I'll get to it when I can.

Samson said:
No. In fact from what I can see, without his constant agitation, his ban had the desired affect. They got rid of a troublemaker and have a more useful community as a result. There's a certain hint in his TMCNet journal that he ended up with the same kind of unproductive result with TMS as we had with him in PMs. Perhaps they were the wiser ones in banning him before it got worse. Hindsight.

Need Whir or I say more? ;)

Samson said:
And no, I suspect when you finally do get around to reading the thread Tyche started you'll be less than happy to have done so. Though David stopped short of actually saying it, what he's proposing is essentially that we become the thought police and ban ourselves from participation in our own forums.

Is that how they do things in France? (Sorry, couldn't resist that one...)
Seriously, it'd be absurd for you four to not be allowed to participate in the forums, what forum admin in his right mind never contributes to the discussion when he has something to contribute? As for the thought police... is that part of Hillary's new campaign platform too? ;)

Samson said:

Conner said:
Oh! That reminds me, I meant to post over at QSFP's forums that a member of one of my forums had asked the other day how come there was no preview button for the edit post function even though there was one for the quick reply box and the new post editor...

Oversight on someone's part probably. I'm not exactly in the mood to touch the QSFP code right now though, so if you could go ahead and post something about it there I'll get to it when I can.

Will do (after I get back up, it's way past bedtime for me...) Devenon and I had considered seeing if it was just something easy like a minor CSS or template change, but I figured even if we figure it out it's still something that the main distribution site/forums could benefit from too, and for all I know it's something really easy that's hidden deep within all that scary PHP. ;)

Yeah, so Kayle took a screenshot too. Guess what? It corroborates my story. What a surprise, since I wasn't lying.

Anyone want to take bets on how long it takes before Cratylus claims Kayle forged his image?

Tyche@TMC said:
I would venture a guess that the reason the after screen shot shows the time of your posting as "#59 Posted Today, 4:55 am" and the before shot shows the time of your posting as "#59 Posted Nov 17, 2007, 4:55 am" is because the before screen shot is that of an edited html page downloaded hours after the forum software would have switched formatted time.

Drizzt1216@TMC said:
I had been thinking Cratylus was probably telling the truth and someone on Samson's administration did edit it without Samson being aware of it. Then I saw Tyche's last post and it rang true so I decided to test what a brand new post looked like a minute or two after posting it. Here's what it looks like.... What does this mean? It means Cratylus's BEFORE screenshot was assuredly taken after his AFTER screenshot.

It's late, and my feeble brain may not be fully understanding - but Davion read the same stuff and reached the same conclusion. Vindication by way of a serious mistake Cratylus made while forging the images. His "after" shot as it turns out is the genuine article. His "before" shot, the one where the taser image link shows, is the forgery, which apparently was constructed using cached HTML and he forgot to adjust the date. Oops.

I was so caught up in the anger of the false accusation I didn't catch the glaring mistake right in front of me.

I figured I'd also record this here for the technical explanation behind how the forgery was spotted, even though Mechaterro is desperately clinging to the idea that Cratylus is innocent.

Mechaterro@TMC said:
I'm not really sure how the forum software internally timestamps posts, but is it reasonable to suspect that it will format output relative to your system time to account for time zone variances? Cratylus' system time in the before shot is Nov 16 at 23:56 resulting in a time stamp of '#59 Posted Nov 17, 2007, 4:55 am'. The system time in the after screenshot is Sat Nov 17 at 00:30 (34 minutes later) resulting in '#59 Posted Today, 4:55 am'.

Just as a technical note. A user's system clock has no relevance to how the date is displayed. That is based on server time. A post made at November 17, 2007, 4:55am will not suddenly switch to displaying "Today, 4:55am" after 34 minutes. The second post would have retained the same timestamp as the first.

A post will display "Today" if it was on the same day, "Yesterday" if it was made the day before, and then reverts to an enumerated date if it's older than that.

*hum*

Yes, I know Luke is in the wrong scene here. It's amazingly hard to find any decent ones of him at all for some reason. I was forced to settle after going 40 pages deep on Google.

Oh. Amusing. He just gets better and better - lying to peoples' faces about who did what where:

Cratylus@TMS said:
You haven't had him silencing you on mudbytes, or picking fights on TMS (and here!).

Now let's see. Who picked what fight where? Hmm? Why.... http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/tavern-blue-hand/4478-moderation.html it looks like he did. Gee, and I bet you hoped they deleted the thread eh Cratylus?

One should notice even in the TMS thread he's taking shots at me for no apparent reason other than possibly trying to flamebait me into something in order to get a post deleted so I'd start complaining about it. Wonder if he got frustrated because I didn't take his bait?

You know. Go read the entire 4 pages of that TMS thread. I mean really read it, and notice that on page 2 Brody has already made it clear they want Cratylus to handle things in PMs where they belong. Much like the MudBytes admins wanted him to. Then compare that to the exact same attitude he's displayed on TMC. What's the only appreciable difference? That he knows he won't be punished for being an asshat, and so he freely slings around libelous accusations and gets away with it because nobody has the smoking gun with his fingerprints all over it.

Cratylus is from the old guard. From the days gone by where MUDs were anarchist havens, I3 was a lawless cesspool run by admins who didn't give a shit even if you were a racist slimebag, and the rest of the people he was used to hanging out with were just like him. Those of us who came in late, or moved on without him, have been trying in vain to clean things up so his kind doesn't poison the well forever. But it seems he and his kind want only to return to the days of lawless anarchy where all MUD forums and chat networks are havens for racist slimebags and other hatemongers.

http://www.mudconnect.com/discuss/discuss.cgi?mode=MSG&area=general&message=19610

Sat Sep 1, 2007 [9:54 PM]

Cratylus@TMC Post #7 said:
Yeah, I've had my disagreements with lots of people,
including Samson, some quite...frank. But I've
not seen him ban someone from MudBytes just because
he found their opinions inconvenient.

http://www.mudconnect.com/discuss2/discuss.cgi?mode=MSG&area=humor&message=6417#6417

Thu Nov 29, 2007 [10:33 AM]

Cratylus@TMC Post #6 said:
Maybe I've had my standards so lowered
by fascists like Kyndig, Lasher, and Samson that Iccy looks
like a saint in comparison.

Rather starkly amazing how quickly his attitude of me turns when the punishment is on him rather than on someone else. And how quick he was to want Scandum run through with the sword of censorship for daring to have a controversial opinion. Fucking hypocrite.

Basically you have Cratylus, Tyche, Drizzt, Osiris, Hades Kane, and a few others who will rabidly complain about how deleting even ONE post out of 700 is an evil fascist nazi event. *ONE* post that the person who posted had requested deletion of. Icculus is way to nice a person to deserve Osiris referring to him as a fascist dictator type for deleting a single post. However, as nice a guy as Icculus is, it's his total hands off approach that's led to this very problem. TMC is a great resource for reviews, articles, mud listings, ranked voting lists, and links to other resources. It's badly tarnished by forums populated with disgusting human beings who strive only to tear down their fellow community members. That they all feel themselves so important as to be capable of destroying anyone's reputation outside of the site is frankly laughable.

That before and after thing was amazing. It appears to be a lot more simple than what some people say the whole situation is. The proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the picture?

Mon Dec 3 23:37:20 2007 [imud_gossip] Salius@Lost Legends: i went to mudconnector to update something, and lo and behold, what is the top discussed topic?
Mon Dec 3 23:37:26 2007 [imud_gossip] Cratylus@Dead Souls Demo: yeah
Mon Dec 3 23:37:32 2007 [imud_gossip] Cratylus@Dead Souls Demo: people find that interesting
Mon Dec 3 23:37:56 2007 [imud_gossip] Cratylus@Dead Souls Demo: you have to understand that samson is a widely known and previously respected figure in the community
Mon Dec 3 23:38:14 2007 [imud_gossip] Cratylus@Dead Souls Demo: so his swift fall into ignominy is endlessly fascinating to everyone

Wow. You won't find a more classic example of the victicrat mentality ever. Cratylus is performing precisely what all victicrat types do: Projecting their own situations onto other people.

Cratylus is actually the one who is "previously respected". You don't keep respect in the community by getting yourself banned from three prominent community sites and ridiculed by others on another for gloating over a perceived victory.

Last time I checked the only people who still hold a negative opinion of me are the trolls who are all celebrating with Cratylus on TMC over my supposed downfall into Oblivion. That amounts to maybe 10 people at most. I suppose I should feel hurt and wounded or something. I've become the laughing stock of 10 people. Oh noes! No reason to live now. Time to go throw myself off the cliff and beg God for mercy on the way down.

Or I can just sit back and collect these little tidbits of hilarity to preserve for all time. Or until the server hosting my blog explodes and eats it all again.

Lobotomy@TMC said:
Anyhow, all that aside, I'm rather suprised at what I've read in Samson's blog so far (I knew very little about Samson prior to this thread). Seeing how strongly he feels about particular volatile issues in that blog does leave me feeling that MudBytes is a fair bit better off not having someone so...passionate like that in a position of authority in a forum. I think I'm feeling a bit of renewed appreciation for the way things are done here, in retrospect.

Actually you'll likely find that the best run forums have people as "passionate" as I am about certain things. It's called having morals and principles to follow. Something a lot of people in this world would do well to stick to once in awhile. Everyone seems to be forgetting the main point here, and that's Cratylus was the one who provoked the situation on MudBytes, and he's the only one responsible for where it's led since then. He's the one lying to people through his teeth about everything that's gone on since he got himself banned from Mudmagic, and TMS after that.

No, I dare say MudBytes is in far WORSE shape by not having someone on the admin team who isn't afraid of victicrats, trolls, and other troublemakers. It's already been demonstrated that they lack the backbone to stand up to Cratylus and have demonstrated a willingness to punish people who did nothing wrong. Anarchy has no place in the world, and has no place on respectable forums either.

BTW, I find it amusing that at least two people have already indicated that I should be either shunned or condemned for having controversial viewpoints on things. The hypocrisy of these people runs deep. Free speech, so long as you agree with their liberal politics. How nice.

Just for the record, particularly in light of the misunderstanding the other night...

I am entirely amazed and a bit disgusted that the "fine folks" over at TMC are still managing to find enough amusement in the thread Crat created there about all this to keep it going this long. Mind you, I'm not really surprised by this, I already gave up on TMC myself quite awhile back.

This is a subject that really belonged strictly in PMs or emails or IMs, but if it had to be brought public like this, at least Samson had the right idea to take it to his own blog site rather than an unrelated forums. In fairness, I don't follow Cratylus' sites and I don't know if he's got his own blog that he's taken this to as well. (I also don't care enough to really want to know.) Personally, I'm a bit tired of hearing about it, especially since it appears that we're unlikely to ever be able to know the truth through real evidence that we can know hasn't been tampered with, but at least if someone is going to continue posting about it, Samson's one of the only people who were directly involved, and therefore actually entitled to defend himself, and this is the only really appropriate place for the topic at this point that I know of.

Since I'm sure there are those among you who are going to ignore this and just assume that I'm a "True Believer", let me save you some time. You're right, I am. I've known Samson for a number of years now and seen quite a few of his contributions to the community. I've known of Cratylus for a slightly shorter time and while I very much respect his contributions to the LP portion of the community and I find his images oft quite amusing, his contributions overall have no impact on me. I've argued within this drama more than once (albeit privately) that banning Crat is a loss to MudBytes because of the expertise within the LP portion of the community and with regard to I3 that Crat brings to the table. I have also pointed out that while Crat's posts can be pretty flammatory at times, they can also be quite helpful and very often contain facts presented logicaly with a fresh viewpoint from others'. On the other hand, I can't fault Samson for banning Crat either. I'd ban someone from my mud or forums for doing the same sorts of things without hesitation. Lack of respect for the folks who bear the time and effort (and expense) to host a site you're visiting is just uncalled for. Mind you, respect doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but it does mean you've got to treat them as well as you'd like to be treated. Either way, unless I see some sort of evidence of Samson's wrong doing that seems irrefutable, I'll readily take Samson's word over most others. Does that make me a "True Believe"? Should I care if it does? If that bothers you, don't read the rest of my post, that won't bother me either.

As for MudBytes, Lobotomy is dead wrong. Yes, I'm one of Samson's supporters, and I am so for what I feel is good reason. Don't take my word alone for thos, look to folks like Hades_Kane, who is known to not be one of Samson's supporters and is still saying (boldly and repeatedly on multiple sites, I might add) that Samson's resignation was a mistake and MB can only suffer for it and he hopes that Samson comes back. As Samson points out, a good forum site needs a passionate leader to carry the site, especially while it's growing which MB definitely still is. Davion, Kiasyn, and Asylumius are clearly doing what they can to fill in the gaps that Samson's departure created and only time will tell us if they can actually manage it because, frankly, his departure did create a set of huge gaps as he was not only the public face of the site but also a significant force in the backend guidance for direction, code, ideas..

Shunned or condemned, eh? *LOL* Well, that sounds pretty routine in the mud community. ;)
You (Samson and anyone else who follows my posts here and in various forums all over the place) already know that I'm not quite as ready as Samson to blame liberalism (or politics in general) for everything, but it is pretty silly to think that we've got folks arguing for free speech everywhere that's tempered by restrictions on who's allowed to argue back and how they're allowed to do so. Personally, I don't see blogs or forums as places where free speech belongs to begin with. So if you're one of those folks who think free speech or anarchy are the only right way to run a forum, do us both a favor and keep avoiding my forums.

Can't really fault much of what you've said here, except to disagree on one point.

As far as the internet, blogs are exactly where "free speech" type of people belong. There's no greater force for the right to speak than bloggers posting their honest opinions of things, and having people respond to that. The only standards in force being what the blog owner will allow to stand. Forums are not really the place for that kind of thing since you end up with anarchy if it's allowed to go on for too long.

People can say what they will about me, but I think my track record on free speech is pretty clear. Especially here, where I've had plenty of folks strongly disagree with things I've said. The same goes for MudBytes. Even if what Scandum said is supposed to be racism, he was allowed to say his piece whether it was appropriate to the forum or not. Folks like Cratylus are in no position to bitch about it when they started the fight to begin with.

BTW, since people seem so interested in labeling themselves, here's mine: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/admin.htm

The description seems to fit well enough considering plenty of people do think I'm fair and even handed, and I do have a short fuse when it comes to troublemakers.

I'd have a harder time classifying myself in a non-admin mode since I tend to just prefer being left alone and not get into fights unless someone is making that impossible, like Cratylus and his lies.

Hmm, and I was thinking that the only thing I'd said about the "free speech" folks was that if they thought the only right way to run a forums was to allow total anarchy/free speech than they should continue to avoid my own forums. *L*

It's one thing to post an absurdly worthless pile of tripe spanning 250+ replies and 11 pages. But then to campaign others to vote it up in a new user based ratings system? That's taking trolling to an all time low.

The truly amazing thing of the forum thread that spawned this blog post is how utterly incapable of logical and objective interpretation most people are. They become aggressive when reading light hearted political incorrect jokes, see the mentioning of well known statistics (one of the corner stones of modern science) as racism and.. surprisingly.. bigotry, remember reading things that were never there - yet keep repeating their claims even if it's pointed out there is no basis in reality for them, and readily support banning people for having unfavorable opinions, or if that doesn't do the trick, for trolling, cause you certainly must be a troll if you have an unfavorable opinion.

And yes, I'm not going to bother to defend any of my statements, nor apologize for them. This because once you go into the defensive - them righteous people will keep hurtling their crap (monkey style) in your general direction to keep you in the defensive, where they happen to have their self proclaimed (and submissively accepted by the spineless masses) moral high ground.

Yet another take on the troll pic, submitted anonymously to me unless they want to reveal themselves. Either way, it fits.