The Euro Game Is Up!

Wow. Someone in the EU actually gets it. Jesus, and here most of us thought they had all given up!


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July 1776 - November 2012.

       
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Posted on Nov 30, 2010 3:17 am by Samson in: | 96 comment(s) [Closed]
Comments
Mohammed, you've presented a very different point of view than any I'd heard elsewhere to date about the whole EU picture. I'll have to try to get a chance to do a bit of research independently and see what I can find out for myself before I pass judgement.

       
I dunno Conner. Doesn't seem like much point since my counterpoints were met with the typical surrender responses we've come to expect. "He's a racist". "He's a xenophobe." "They're a fringe movement."

Personally I see what Mr. Farage is doing as healthy patriotism. He's not advocating locking Britain away from any involvement in the world. He's merely advocating that countries not be so quick to give up their sovereignty in a system that clearly isn't working. People like him are not xenophobes. Kim Jong Il is a xenophobe. Ahmadinejad is a xenophobe. Even Ron Paul here at home could be seen as a xenophobe as far as foreign policy.

The US is currently running at a public debt level of 60% of GDP. So we're already approaching Greece and Portugal levels. It's not a model we can sustain any more than it is a model the EU can sustain. We aren't Zimbabwe or Japan yet, but we're certainly acting like we want to be. Projections are estimating we'll be over 90% by early next year. That's well beyond crisis level.

       
Conner: On the Mark/Euro thing: I WAS 100% Wrong and Muhemed was 100% right,

       
I kinda liked Ron Paul, personally, but... yes, I do see your point, Samson.

As for the public debt being well beyond crisis level, do we really need to hit 90% to consider ourselves in trouble?

They say it takes a big man to admit he's wrong, Dallen, and I suspect that Mohammed was right about something else too, that most of the news we get over here regarding the EU probably is filtered through Fleet St with bias intact, but we do get news from other sources too just not nearly as often because most other sources aren't in English to start with.

       
Yes, I liked Ron Paul too - on domestic policy. His foreign policy stance scared the shit out of me.

I had to go look up the reference to Fleet Street. I couldn't honestly tell you one way or the other if I'm getting all my EU info from the "British national press" or not. If that's who The Telegraph is, perhaps so. They just happen to be the place that comes up most often when I do searches for Euro news. If you guys over there across the pond want us using different sources, they need to learn how to game Google and be seen :P

Certainly when I went to find this Nigel Farage, one can't really argue I used The Telegraph since the videos were uploaded directly to Youtube by the organization he's a member of.

Of course, if "other sources" means having to read German or Dutch or French, that's not going to happen and I'd not do the news the disservice of trying to parse it through a translator service.

       
Edited by Samson on Dec 1, 2010 8:41 pm
I'll admit his stance on foreign policy was a little overboard, but compared to George Washington's position on foreign policy he was quite ambassadorial. ;)

I've always sort of accepted that "Fleet Street" was more a reference to what amounts to the national censors in the UK than a particular news agency. :shrug:

That makes them a bit like campaign videos submitted to youtube by his party during an election year then, no? :blink:

Oh come on, all sorts of things become much funnier when Google translates them from another language to English for us.. :lol:

       
Perhaps, but unless Farage is running for some kind of office, I don't see the comparison. I'm pretty sure from the footage I've watched that most of it originates from the EU parliament anyway and his organization just put their production credits on it when they posted it.

I wonder if that music at the end of most of the clips where the lighthouse and the circle of starts is the actual EU anthem, because if it is, it sounds disturbingly like the Russian anthem.

       
Mohammed [Anon] said:
Comment #33 Dec 1, 2010 10:01 pm
Fleet Street refers to the UK press, which accounts for nearly all the English language press in Europe. I didn't realize it was an obscure reference, sorry.

Of course, if "other sources" means having to read German or Dutch or French, that's not going to happen and I'd not do the news the disservice of trying to parse it through a translator service.


It wasn't meant as an accusation, it's just the way it is, the way my view of Mexico is mostly filtered through the American media for the same reason.

About "surrender responses", I simply don't agree with the matter of fact statement that "it clearly isn't working", and I listed a number of things that I would miss if we just called it quits.

       
Mohammed [Anon] said:
Comment #34 Dec 1, 2010 10:06 pm
I wonder if that music at the end of most of the clips where the lighthouse and the circle of starts is the actual EU anthem, because if it is, it sounds disturbingly like the Russian anthem


I didn't recognize the tune. The EU anthem is "Ode to Joy" from Beethoven's 9th symphony.

       
Britain joined the EU in 1973. I'd hardly go so far as to say they don't want to be part of it since that's nearly 40 years ago now. I think they just knew better than to join the Euro (currency) because they realized THAT wasn't going to work. Unless I'm missing something, that's mostly what Farage was blasting the EU parliament over. The impending collapse of the Euro, not the EU as a whole.

It's pretty hard to swallow any claims made about things being just fine, or governments acting responsibly in the crisis, when Greece and Ireland have already fallen over the cliff and Portugal is right behind them about to go over. Also if Spain really does go under, and really is 7x the GDP of Portugal, and the bailout money really will be gone, then Farage has a perfectly valid point about the survival of the experiment as a whole. If you can't pay your debts, things turn bad rather quickly.

That's why when I see stuff like this and then realize our own Federal Reserve is marching down the same path on the way to the same cliff and has every intention of jumping off just because the others did too, I get very very worried about it. We still have a chance to turn around before it's too late. The EU doesn't appear to be so lucky at this point.

       
Samson said:

Perhaps, but unless Farage is running for some kind of office, I don't see the comparison. I'm pretty sure from the footage I've watched that most of it originates from the EU parliament anyway and his organization just put their production credits on it when they posted it.

No clue, I was just commenting on what it makes it seem like.

Mohammed said:

Fleet Street refers to the UK press, which accounts for nearly all the English language press in Europe. I didn't realize it was an obscure reference, sorry.

Ah, in that case, yes, we probably are getting the vast majority of our news through Fleet Street because most of us don't read other languages well enough to try to follow non-english news sources. It's not a totally obscure reference, but it's very infrequently used here in America.

Samson said:

Unless I'm missing something, that's mostly what Farage was blasting the EU parliament over. The impending collapse of the Euro, not the EU as a whole.

Agreed, he was talking exclusively about financial aspects so I also think he only meant the Euro rather than the EU as a whole. Though I will also say that I hadn't realized the EU as a whole had made things so much easier for general populace over there, as Mohammed indicates, either.

Samson said:

That's why when I see stuff like this and then realize our own Federal Reserve is marching down the same path on the way to the same cliff and has every intention of jumping off just because the others did too, I get very very worried about it. We still have a chance to turn around before it's too late. The EU doesn't appear to be so lucky at this point.

No kidding. And Obama seems to be desperately encouraging the Federal Reserve to make it a charge rather than just a stumbling stroll.

       
Mohammed [Anon] said:
Comment #37 Dec 2, 2010 12:07 am

Britain joined the EU in 1973. I'd hardly go so far as to say they don't want to be part of it since that's nearly 40 years ago now. I think they just knew better than to join the Euro (currency) because they realized THAT wasn't going to work. Unless I'm missing something, that's mostly what Farage was blasting the EU parliament over. The impending collapse of the Euro, not the EU as a whole.


Britain, rather than using their status as one of the four major countries in the EU to help steer things in the right direction, has usually left Germany alone against Italy and France. For example, rather than help reform the EU budget, they negotiated a rebate for themselves and generally display a "no, no, and leave me out of it" attitude.


It's pretty hard to swallow any claims made about things being just fine, or governments acting responsibly in the crisis, when Greece and Ireland have already fallen over the cliff and Portugal is right behind them about to go over. Also if Spain really does go under, and really is 7x the GDP of Portugal, and the bailout money really will be gone, then Farage has a perfectly valid point about the survival of the experiment as a whole. If you can't pay your debts, things turn bad rather quickly.


It's more the case that some things are working and others are not. I don't think calling it quits at the first sign of trouble is good policy. Also, ditching the Euro wouldn't change the fact that those debts have to be paid back, so I don't see what good it would do.

       
Anonymous [Anon] said:
Comment #38 Dec 2, 2010 12:43 am
Agreed, he was talking exclusively about financial aspects so I also think he only meant the Euro rather than the EU as a whole.


In this speech, maybe, but as an MEP for the UK Independence Party, his goal is the withdrawal of the UK from the European Union.

       
Anonymous said:

MEP for the UK Independence Party

Master of Environmental Perjury?
Minister of Electrical Purification?
Minstrel to the Empire's Petri dishes?
Have I ever mentioned before that I really don't care for acronyms, particularly when there's no context given to help identify what they're meant to stand for without someone having to go look it up or not even enough info to be able to look 'em up. :sigh:

       
It appears to mean "Member of European Parliament".

If the EU is screwing over the UK, his goal of withdrawing from the EU seems perfectly reasonable to me.

       
Now that's a useless sounding title. :facepalm:

Sorry, Mohammed & Anonymous, I can't really argue against Samson's logic on that point. If he and his party feel that the EU is not working out for the UK it would only be reasonable for him to openly oppose the UK's continuing membership in the EU, despite what that might mean for the citizens of other EU nations. Even you've got to admit that's fairly infallible logic.

       
Mohammed [Anon] said:
Comment #42 Dec 3, 2010 12:00 am
Of course it's his right to argue for the UK leaving the EU. He's in the wrong place if he wants to achieve it though - only the British parliament can make that decision.

       
I'll bet if he can manage to get the EU to throw the UK out based on his representation of the UK it won't require the British Parliament to do a thing.. ;)

       
The EU won't do that. They need the UK to stay in one piece. Much like they need Germany's financial backing to keep the Euro from collapsing.

Unfortunately it seems the UK parliament is perfectly happy to give up their sovereignty to a foreign power and so are the Germans.

       
Oh, I know the EU wouldn't do it, but he had said that "only the British parliament can make that decision", so I was pointing out another possibility. :shrug:

You'd think that as badly as the EU needs the UK as one of it's members it'd put parliament in a rather powerful position amongst those relinquishing their sovereignty though.

       
Yea, I think "part of " Mohammed's point was 'no one' is relinquishing their sovereignity; being as the European Parliment doesn't actually govern anything other than trade, and that by concenses of the members.

       
But I'm not sure that even he has actually shown that to be true, especially in light of the speech that we all watched at the top of this thread in which it's stated that Ireland was not allowed to have a general election until the budget had been approved which implies that sovereignty was in fact relinquished to the EU.

       
Uuuuhhhhhhh....you've got a point there. :shrug:

       
Mohammed [Anon] said:
Comment #49 Dec 3, 2010 9:11 pm
it's stated that Ireland was not allowed to have a general election until the budget had been approved


It's not up to the EU to allow or disallow elections. I think he implied (i don't have sound here, so I can't hear it back, and I don't remember exactly) that mrs. Ashton (??) complained about the timing of it. If she did, she was being stupid.

I'll bet if he can manage to get the EU to throw the UK out based on his representation of the UK it won't require the British Parliament to do a thing.. ;)


There's no mechanism for throwing a member state out of the EU, but membership decisions are made by unanimous vote by the member states, so in order to throw a member country out, said country would have to agree to it. I think Greenland left the precursor of the EU when it gained home rule from Denmark, I don't know the details.

       
Mohammed said:

Conner said:

it's stated that Ireland was not allowed to have a general election until the budget had been approved

It's not up to the EU to allow or disallow elections. I think he implied (i don't have sound here, so I can't hear it back, and I don't remember exactly) that mrs. Ashton (??) complained about the timing of it. If she did, she was being stupid.

No, he actually said:
Nigel Paul Farage said:

What they’re being told, as their government is collapsing, is that it would be inappropriate for them to have a general election. In fact Commissioner Rehn here said they had to agree their budget first before they’d be allowed to have a general election.

(The internet's an amazing thing, you can even find transcripts to stuff like that youtube video Samson posted if you but look for 'em... ;) )

Mohammed said:

Conner said:

I'll bet if he can manage to get the EU to throw the UK out based on his representation of the UK it won't require the British Parliament to do a thing..

There's no mechanism for throwing a member state out of the EU, but membership decisions are made by unanimous vote by the member states, so in order to throw a member country out, said country would have to agree to it. I think Greenland left the precursor of the EU when it gained home rule from Denmark, I don't know the details.

It's interesting that you'd say that given that I'd already conceded that I'd only thrown that out there to point out that there is an alternative to British Parliament deciding to withdraw from the EU, but, since you're going to pursue this, allow me to provide you another transcript link, this time from back in February:
Martin Schulz, President of the 'Socialists & Democrats' group said:

it's not just a case of allowing the UK lo leave the EU

While it would seem that Nigel's got a serious problem with controlling his verbal barrages in EU Parliament, Mr. Schultz seems to think that the UK wants out from the EU and isn't being allowed to exit, gracefully or otherwise. Remember, that was 10 months ago too.

       
Edited by Conner on Dec 3, 2010 9:42 pm
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