Iranian Provocation

Two Iranian warships are set to transit the Suez Canal in the next couple of days in a move that can only be seen as a hostile gesture toward Israel. This would be the first time since the Islamic Revolution of 1979 that Iran has sent ships through the canal of any type. The two ships, the Alvand and the Kharq, are said to be bound for Syria for "training purposes". Israel has already publicly condemned the crossing as a threat and is not the least bit happy about it. Who could blame them really, with Iran routinely threatening to wipe them off the map. There is no assurances from Egypt at all that these vessels have been properly searched for contraband such as nuclear weapons, other than a hollow statement from Canal operations that the ships will be checked for "illegal" cargo.

This couldn't be a more transparent provocation on Iran's part. No doubt these vessels are filled with weapons and supplies for Hezbollah and Iran is simply testing the waters on Egypt's new military rule to see what they can get away with. It's things like this that should raise red flags and have people seriously discussing securing the Suez Canal under international control. Or better yet, under US military control.

The media of course seems to have all but glossed this story over except for a short article on Fox News. Preferring instead to dwell on the US veto of yet another Security Council resolution to slap Israel in the face over settling their own sovereign territory.

One day soon, Israel will wake up and realize Obama is not their friend and they will have to act on their own to preserve their own interests. When that day comes, for whatever it's worth, I'm with them on it as are the majority of Americans.
.........................
"It is pointless to resist, my son." -- Darth Vader
"Resistance is futile." -- The Borg
"Mother's coming for me in the dragon ships. I don't like these itchy clothes, but I have to wear them or it frightens the fish." -- Thurindil

Well. I guess that's that then.

       
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Posted on Feb 18, 2011 4:32 pm by Samson in: | 63 comment(s) [Closed]
Comments
I certainly have my problems with Israel, though I freely admit that Iran are far more of a problem than Israel is.

I wouldn't jump the gun on the 'filled with cargo and weapons for Hezbollah' bit. It sounds to me more like Iran are simply showing Israel that they will not be intimidated by the threat of military action against them. Accusing them of harboring secret supplies of weapons to be used against the western world without proof is a bad idea because if you're wrong it's kind of embarrassing to everyone. Like Iraq.

If Israel feels the need to take out Iran however, I have no objections, since Iran has more than demonstrated that it is genuinely dangerous.

       
For whatever it's worth, there's an article on CNN's front page about it right now.

As always with this sort of thing, Information Dissemination does good work. What I've gleaned from it all is that Alvand is kind of an outdated POS corvette that isn't particularly interesting, but that Kharg has been indicated in arms smuggling before, and I wouldn't exactly be filled with shock if Iran was using it to smuggle something to its Hezbollah proxies. Which is kind of to say that I'd actually be kind of surprised if they weren't doing that.

Not entirely sure what Obama or anybody was supposed to do about this, though. Free ocean and all that. For that matter, it's my understanding that the Suez canal is open to transit by everybody in the world, it's just that warships require a couple of days of notification.

       
Vladaar [Anon] said:
Comment #3 Feb 19, 2011 12:29 pm
Iran wants world war 3. The leader does anyway. He thinks it will bring the Messiah, so I would not think the ships are there for good intentions. I was shocked Obama vetoed the UN res for Palestine state.

       
Obama vetoed it? What the hell was he thinking? It should be pretty obvious that the whole mess over there is only going to get cleaned up when the Palestinians are allowed back there rights and to govern themselves. Once they're out of poverty, hamas will very quickly find that they're supply of recruits dry up, and Israel can worry about shooting people that are actually evil (Iran).

Though it'd be cleanest if the Iran regime is removed by its own people. As we have have recently seen, America going into countries before trying to establish a democratic government doesn't turn out to brilliantly.

       
Iraq was not an embarrassment. Even though Saddam managed to get his WMDs moved out of the country before we caught him red handed, the net result was better for all involved. A brutal and ruthless dictator dead, and the people of Iraq able to determine their own fate for the first time. That they aren't handling their responsibility well is the embarrassment.

As far as Israel taking action against the two ships, I'd have no qualms about them making a pre-emptive strike and being wrong about it than have them ignore it and have it turn out to be an actual weapons shipment. Or worse.

I'm shocked Obama vetoed it too, because he's clearly demonstrated before that he's no friend to Israel and then he comes along and does this.

The situation in Gaza and the West Bank will only be cleaned up when Israel goes in and mows Hamas down. The only "occupied" territories there are the ones the "Palestinians" are currently sitting in. If they don't like how they're being treated, they can stop blowing themselves up to kill Israelis. Or just go back to the countries they came from to begin with.

       
Hamas exists because of the oppression and externally inflicted poverty of the Palestinians within the west bank. You oppress a group of people and they will fight back. It is as simple as that. Solve those problems and I think you'll find that the Palestinians won't really be interested in killing Israelis anymore. Though from what I've gathered from your opinions, the only right you think the Palestinians should have is the right to be shot by Israelis.

Also, Iraq may not be an embarrassment within America, but outside of it, I can assure you that George Bush's little 'crusade' is held with contempt. I'm not going to take your word on those invisible nuclear weapons either.

       
Edited by prettyfly on Feb 19, 2011 2:37 pm
Wrong. Hamas exists for the sole purpose of destroying Israel. How many times do we have to go over the fact that you're listening to Arab propaganda? Have you actually paid attention to the Hamas charter?

You don't have to take my word on the WMDs. Saddam's own generals said they had the stuff once they felt secure enough to rat the guy out after the invasion. But again, don't let me stop you from relying on whatever propaganda sources you're drawing from.

       
I thinks its fairly condemning that you dub your countries most internationally respected current affairs magazine 'arabic propoganda'. Since the definition of propaganda here is though is 'something I don't agree with', I won't go further down that road.

In any case, I think you are missing the point. Hamas does want to destroy Israel, but the only reason they can gather support from the population of the west bank is because of the oppression of the general population there. You remove the oppression and give those people back there freedom and livelihoods and suddenly they won't care about supporting a radical terrorist organization.

Radicalism comes from poverty, not Islam. Educated Arabs with jobs aren't going to want to destroy the west.

       
Prettyfly... *shaking his head* ..what have you been reading? Time Magazine?

I was surprised and pleased that Obama veto'd this one, myself.

As for the rest, I think Samson covered it pretty well already. Especially considering how bad shaking my head at prettyfly made me feel... :sick: *grabs another tissue*

       
And which "internationally respected current affairs magazine" would that be? If you indeed mean TIME, they're a progressive rag that may as well be Arab propaganda considering their attitude toward Israel.

I'm also not missing the point. Gaza and the West Bank are filled with Muslims. Their belief system mandates that they kill Jews. That's the crux of the problem, and if Israel got rid of the barricades and other measures, the bloodshed would be unprecedented. There wouldn't be some miraculous My Little Pony moment with Arab and Jew alike celebrating in the streets. If you think this would happen, you're far FAR more brainwashed on this subject than I'd ever imagined.

The only reason those two regions are filled with Muslims at all is because Jordan, Syria, and Egypt all expelled their populations of "Palestinians" and forced them to move to Israel. So really, you need to go read up on it and learn who the real oppressors are.

BTW, I'm poor. I don't think you could consider me a radical. Radicalism does not come from poverty. If it did, India and China both would have been on fire long ago.

       
You know, the funny thing is that I'm poor too despite that most folk assume that Republicans are wealthy and out to protect their own financial interests, in general. On the other hand, while radicalism may not usually stem from poverty, it's certainly not exempted to poverty either anymore than republican affiliation is. :shrug:

       
Hmm...I'm left thinking that your judgment is clouded by a pre-conceived belief that every single thing that Israel does is right. Which is rather wrong.

Also, I'm bemused by the perception that because all the other Arab nations oppress Palestinian's Israel has the right to do so as well. That's the same sort of judgment that the the Spanish used to enslave the Native Americans pretty much everywhere from Mexico down.

There are different levels of poor. The people in the Gaza Strip go down to the aid centers every night to get their food and don't have any jobs to occupy themselves during the day. A lot of them don't have anything. You may not be as wealthy as you'd like but (without trying to sound like too much of a dick) you don't have to go down to the food bank every night either and can keep yourself occupied during the day.

(I think I may have been mixing up the Gaza Strip and the west bank earlier on as well...oops :sad:)

Which is the whole problem. All the young men over there can do is sit on a battered street corner in the heat during the day with there mates and get angry over the fact that they've had relatives killed by Israeli bullets, and hey, mr Hamas guy, did you say that the Koran allows us to kill jews... The scene would be a lot different if they were all working on apprenticeships with their families intact and a bit of money in there pockets.

       
No, I'm not a fanatic who thinks everything Israel does is right. I'm sure they've done some questionable things in their time as a nation. Right now I'm just not seeing any of those things happening.

It sounds to me like you're one of those people who think the "Palestinians" can do no wrong.

No, they don't have the right to oppress, but that's NOT what they're doing. When militant Islamic radicals are throwing themselves at your cities with bombs strapped to their waists, things change. They change in ways neither of us can ever truly understand, but apparently I understand it better than you do. When bombers come forth, the only realistic response is to kill them before they can reach their targets. When an entire region of your own country is filled with these people, the only realistic response is to blockade them in.

Gaza Strip, West Bank, not a whole lot of difference really. They both have horrible track records. The fact that both places are filled with abject poverty does not justify the wholesale slaughter of innocent people no matter what you think the cause may be.

One need only look at the reforms Abbas has been putting into place to see that you can in fact get the rabble in line. What motivated him? I could make you guess, but I'm not confident you'd reach the conclusion that they don't want Hamas coming to power in the West Bank.

       
"Radicalism comes from poverty, not Islam. Educated Arabs with jobs aren't going to want to destroy the west."

Like Osama bin Laden, who happened to be educated in the west and came from a family of billionaires. Like Ayman al-Zawahiri, second in command in Al-Qaeda, who happened to be a Medical doctor, who also came from a middle to upper-class family in Egypt. Like Mohamed Atta who came from an upper-class family in Egypt and who had a degree in architecture. You must have sprung from a very liberal educational system that pins all the world's woes on poverty and capitalism.

Islam is Islam. It has not been hijacked...It is what it is! Ask the 270 million plus who have lost their lives in Islam's expansion. Ask the Sikhs, the Jews, the Christians, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Animists, and various sects within the fold of Imperial Islam. I dare you to explore that! I won't expect much.

       
@prettyfly:
No, Israel, like any other sovereign state is certainly subject to mistakes and even outright wrong choices. But they're also far more often in the right than most of the other countries out there and the vast majority of their "actions" have been strictly defensive and retaliatory unlike the Palestinians you're so eagerly defending who can claim almost as close to exclusivity with aggressive and offensive actions. This isn't about anyone oppressing anyone else, it's about Israel being at war with the Palestinians who declared the war for unjust reasons and refused Israel's attempts at peaceful resolution repeatedly.

I've actually been to a number of food banks and homeless shelters in my life, both as a "customer" and as security. From what you've said, I have to wonder if you ever have. Most of the people who show up at those places are not nearly as bitter as you seem to think, they're grateful.

@Samson:
Exactly. Abbas demonstrated clearly that if we give them an opportunity to behave like humans in fear of Hamas control they are actually capable of it. ;)

@breezy:
Fairly well stated. I hope that prettyfly realizes that your post is entirely directed at him.

       
No. it's not directed at you or Samson. I pretty much know how you and he stand on this issue.

       
Anonymous [Anon] said:
Comment #17 Feb 20, 2011 5:04 pm
@breezy; asks the muslims who died at the hands of the Christians during the crusades. As for Osama, his family kicked him out for being a nut and the only reason he came to power in the first place was because America gave him a bunch of guns so him and his mates (the Taliban) could go and kill Russians. The average Afganistahni hated the Taliban anyway. They wanted to get on with their lives and not have to live under the constant fear of being killed by - radical muslims. If America hadn't supported the Taliban in the first place, they wouldn't have been able to get into a position where they could control a country through fear.

Unfortunately picking out random crazies doesn't make the entire Islamic religion evil. Its like saying all of America is evil because the bush administration was able to use the state of fear following the September 11 attacks to manipulate the publics will to allow them to do pretty much wahtever they wish.

Also, I highly doubt that the Koran is any more open to violence than the Old Testament. Y'know, the Old Testement even says its ok to rape enemy women. It has to do with the people interpereting it, or more specifically, what they want it to say. Al-quida's interperetation of the Koran is corrupted in the same way that the 'God hates Fags' churches interpretation of the bible is.

@Palestinians have an entire race of people to blame for the reason they are going to the food bank, and to add insult to injury those people are shooting their children as well. Its a very different thing to what happens in Western Countries.

You're simply baming the victims. The Palestinians fight because they are persecuted. Remove the persucution and they'll stop shooting (making exceptions for the inevitable individual loonies that will still keep fighting). Israel may not be entirely responsible for this persecution, but they are an educated nation in a great position to help the Palestinian situation out a great deal, however, they don't seem interested in taking up the opportunity.

       
Oops, that was me. Dealing with a retarded school wireless server on an old version of IE is painful. Aparently it doesn't want me to log in... :sad:

       
You do realize all you've done is paint the muslims as vengeful fanatics bent on making the Christians pay for what they've done.... 700 years ago, right? Cause frankly if you are, then you on some level already accept what many of us already know - that that's exactly what they are. And that's exactly why they're treated as pariah in the world. They're still running things like it's 1375.

       
(Anon) You do realize the Crusades were brought about by the Islamic insurgence into eastern Europe, Constantinople, Sicily, southern Italy and Spain, don't you? As for the Koran...it is swollen with violent verses. Read it sometime, if you will, if that's not inconvenient.

As for the Palestinians, they have always been the stepchild of the Arabs. An ends to a means and that end is the utter destruction of Israel and the Jews,

       
prettyfly said:

Also, I highly doubt that the Koran is any more open to violence than the Old Testament. Y'know, the Old Testement even says its ok to rape enemy women. It has to do with the people interpereting it, or more specifically, what they want it to say. Al-quida's interperetation of the Koran is corrupted in the same way that the 'God hates Fags' churches interpretation of the bible is.

Nope, it really is. On the other hand, you are right in one regard though, both doctrines have been revised repeatedly according to various interpretations. Neither usually for the good of mankind. :shrug:

prettyfly said:

@Palestinians have an entire race of people to blame for the reason they are going to the food bank, and to add insult to injury those people are shooting their children as well. Its a very different thing to what happens in Western Countries.

You're simply baming the victims. The Palestinians fight because they are persecuted. Remove the persucution and they'll stop shooting (making exceptions for the inevitable individual loonies that will still keep fighting). Israel may not be entirely responsible for this persecution, but they are an educated nation in a great position to help the Palestinian situation out a great deal, however, they don't seem interested in taking up the opportunity.

Palestinians were participants in the conversation? ...must've missed that post...

As absurd as your presumption that the "Palestinians have an entire race of people to blame" is (other than themselves), the notion that if Israel would just be all peace and love with them they'd suddenly stop the violence is idiocy. They've shown over and over that they don't want help, they want to kill every Jew in the world, starting with all the ones in Israel. Your suggestion is a bit akin to saying all our serial killers in prison are being wrongly judged and just need our love and affection to be better people instead of being worsened by being kept on death row..

Samson said:

They're still running things like it's 1375

Well, there are a few ways they've advanced with the times. They're primarily using guns and bombs and such now instead of swords... ;)

@breezy:
Yup. I bet prettyfly won't be willing to read the Koran himself though, that requires one to be secure enough in their own religious beliefs to risk reading someone else's religious text. ;)

       
Edited by Conner on Feb 20, 2011 5:56 pm
samson said:

They're still running things like it's 1375


That's true, the people living in Muslim area haven't gone anywhere much since 1375, which is why they are violent and tribal and happily use their religion to justify inflicting suffering on others, just as Christian did back then. The problem is the people, not the religion.


conner said:

As absurd as your presumption that the "Palestinians have an entire race of people to blame" is (other than themselves), the notion that if Israel would just be all peace and love with them they'd suddenly stop the violence is idiocy. They've shown over and over that they don't want help, they want to kill every Jew in the world, starting with all the ones in Israel. Your suggestion is a bit akin to saying all our serial killers in prison are being wrongly judged and just need our love and affection to be better people instead of being worsened by being kept on death row..


Therein lies you're problem. You're demonizing the entire race and assuming that they are all evil and want to kill Jews. 90% of the Palestinians want to get on with life, but thats a bit difficult when you've got harsh sanctions and bullets being shot in the general direction of your community on a regular basis. Which is why the average Palestinian isn't to fond of Israel.

Also, I don't recall Israel offering to help the Palestinians to much. If they were interested in helping they'd cut back the sanctions and put money towards rebuilding the communities within the west bank and Gaza strip (marshal law plan style, rather than free cash for corrupt politician style).

@Breezy; the crusades were an attempt by the pope to get together all the armies and churches within Europe so that he could control them. The Muslims that were expanding into places like Turkey and Spain weren't really bothering the Christians, so the pope had to make up a bunch of stuff about them massacring Christians and preventing pilgrims from getting to Jeruselam etc, a lot of which wasn't true. Unfortunately this wasn't enough to convince all the Christian knights, so he also claimed that Jesus was misquoted and it was only wrong to kill other Christians. And so the slaughter began (and I'll add that when the Muslims took Jerusalem back over, they killed a hell of a lot less people than the Christians did).

Noble cause? I think not.

       
prettyfly said:

You're demonizing the entire race and assuming that they are all evil and want to kill Jews.


Actually you'll find they're doing a wonderful job of demonizing themselves and convincing a lot of people (except you apparently) that they do indeed wish to kill all the Jews. They don't even hide it. Their most popular Arabic TV shows have clerics who openly pray for all Jews to die, no matter where they are in the world.

Religion of peace? Not on your life.

Bullets being shot in their general direction on a regular basis? Surely you have some proof of these senseless atrocities and can offer it up? If you do even a half-assed job of looking into the situation there you'll find those bullets are being fired in self defense, something which Israel possesses a sovereign right to like any other nation. Or is it not possible for Jews to be freedom fighters?

Your interpretation of the Crusades sounds mostly wrong, but I'll defer to Dwip on that one if he cares to chime in.

       
Skipping most of your comment just to go the crusades (I don't have time to to respond to that right now), what I've said is quite a simplification over the crusade's origin. However, breezy decided to take one splinter or the reasons behind it and pretending thats the sole reason, so I felt it fine to do the same. Except I'm hoping Dwip will say that my splinter is better.

       
@Prettyfly:
(Why is your name not capitalized?? ...maybe I've asked that before, and either way, sorry for the tangent but it's something that has bugged the grammarian in me each time I've responded to you.)

First of all, they're not a race, depending on which group we're actually discussing, they could be a religion, a religious sect, a nation (of sorts, since the Palestinians don't actually have their own country), or a group, but they're not a race. If anything they're part of the same race as most of the other folks living in Israel and the rest of the Middle East. In fact, if you encountered a group of people from that part of the country, all naked (don't ask me why they'd be naked in your presence), I'll bet you'd be entirely unable to tell them apart, especially if you don't speak Arabic. (Why Arabic? Because it's a language that's spoken by everyone native to the Middle East, including Israelites because Hebrew is considered a holy language and has absolutely no "curse words" at all so Jews use Arabic for all their cursing.)

Second of all, as Samson pointed out, I don't need to demonize them, they do a fine job of it themselves. However, the fact that I'm Jewish myself, something I've never even come close to masking in anyway here, should make it rather obvious that I'm going to have a significant bias toward Israel and against anyone who expresses antisemitism, let alone who actively tries to routinely kill people solely because they're Jewish. Let's face it, you can argue until you're blue in the face with any sort of argument you like and you're simply not going to alleviate that bias. I'll freely admit to the bias and my steadfastness in it, but I'd rather appreciate if you could at least acknowledge that my bias isn't entirely unfounded nor unreasonable in the base terms I've expressed it as in my last sentence.

Finally, aside from the rest of what Samson already said, for someone who claims to know so much about the affairs over there, I'm appalled that you'd claim Israel has never offered to help the Palestinians simply because you don't remember reading/hearing about such entreaties. There have been several Israeli leaders who've made attempts in the past to reconcile with the Palestinians and the response has been the same every time: No matter what's offered, the only acceptable reconciliation for the Palestinians is the absolute extermination of all Jews, which obviously isn't acceptable to anyone else, involved or not. Oddly enough, even the Persians, Egyptians, and Syrians side with Israel in understanding why there can be no reconciliation with the Palestinians and refuse to harbor them. This isn't oppression or persecution, it's refusing to absolve criminals of their crimes and enforcing banishment, as far as those three countries are concerned. For Israel, it's being overly tolerant to the point of ridicule from the rest of the world, except for those who believe the propaganda that says the poor Palestinians are being abused by the nasty Israelis who just won't share their hard won strip of land. :rolleyes:

As for the Crusades, yes, the pope at the time was an ass who really wanted absolute power over Europe and conducted the Crusades to solidify that purpose. He even told lies about his doctrine and his enemy to help make it happen. But the Saracens weren't entirely faultless either. If they hadn't been trying to expand their empire into the Roman Catholic empire at the time, the Crusades wouldn't have happened. Spain was pretty important to the Roman Catholics at the time (see the Inquisition for more on that) and Turkey was considered a stepping stone toward Italy as well as a region of hotly contested holy significance to both sides.

As for the Christians killing more people in the crusades than the Muslims killed in their takeover of Jerusalem, that's a matter of the number of the enemy available to kill at the time, not a measure of their civility.

       
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