Obama's First Test

So we all knew this was coming, right? After all, Joe Biden said so himself during the campaign that in the next 6 months Obama would be tested by the world or some such rot. Well that day arrived late Saturday night our time in the USA. The North Koreans have launched a ballistic missile test under the false guise of a satellite deployment. The rocket arced directly over Japanese airspace and crashed in the north Pacific Ocean. The spin machine is already in full swing to assure everyone that there was never any threat. I call bullshit, because the missile IS the threat. So how is our glorious tin god president going to handle this?

If you guessed that he's going to the UN Security Council, you're right:

Barack Obama said:

This action demands a response from the international community, including from the United Nations Security Council to demonstrate that its resolution cannot be defied with impunity


Does the line sound familiar? It should. It's the same cookie cutter response that just about every foreign leader in Europe, Asia, and indeed the rest of the world seems to be regurgitating. So why are we relying on the United Nations to do anything about this? Doesn't anyone with even an ounce of brain matter know that nothing will ever come of it? Have we not learned from the 14 years of endless defiance by Saddam Hussein that the Security Council will never actually back up their words with anything of substance? John Bolton appears to agree:

John Bolton said:

I think that the idea that the council today or later this week is going to do anything significant is pretty remote, I can guarantee you from my own experience resolutions don't get stronger, they get weaker as time goes on.


The implications of this launch are so transparent as to be obvious. Iran is building the warheads, North Korea is building the ballistic missiles. One day soon we may be faced with a direct missile strike on Alaska or Hawaii and we'll all have Obama the Appeaser to thank for it. When your enemies provoke you militarily, you don't respond by wagging your finger in the air and yelling "NO!". That doesn't even work for the family cat and the liberal media seriously thinks that it will work on Kim Jong Il. The North Koreans are already lying to their own people that the rocket put a bird in orbit. Claiming that it's broadcasting some kind of song about Kim and his son, and "measurement data", whatever that's supposed to be. NORAD and NORTHCOM have both already confirmed that no such payload reached orbit. Satellite photos from immediately before the launch also indicate no such payload ever existed.

The message the world is sending to thugs like Kim Jong Il is simple. "Be nice or you'll get a timeout." Well, the child is throwing a tantrum and needs to be spanked. The Japanese apparently don't believe in spankings because even though they huffed and they puffed about how they'd shoot the thing down if it went over their airspace, they did absolutely nothing about it when the missile did just that. The US obviously doesn't believe in spankings because we didn't shoot the thing down either when the trajectory clearly indicated a test to see if they could reach Alaska. No, instead the child is now in control and he knows it. North Korea called the bluff and the world flinched.

Times like these are why I wish we had Reagan back. He'd have put these asshats in their place.
.........................
"It is pointless to resist, my son." -- Darth Vader
"Resistance is futile." -- The Borg
"Mother's coming for me in the dragon ships. I don't like these itchy clothes, but I have to wear them or it frightens the fish." -- Thurindil

Well. I guess that's that then.

       
« Iran Attacks Israel
Obama's Second Test »

Posted on Apr 5, 2009 11:01 am by Samson in: | 70 comment(s) [Closed]
Comments
Reagan would've shot it down from space because, if he was still alive and in office today, he'd have gotten his Star Wars initiative fully operational years ago and by now would probably even have a functional continental shield of some sort in place as well. Sadly, none of that is currently the case and we're instead left with President Obama threatening homeland gun control and wagging his fingers at the UN Security Council to go have a serious talking to with Kim Jong II. But, you already knew the US didn't believe in spankings anymore, just look at all our nation has done to condemn parents who'd dare to punish thier own children, no matter the reason, more severly than a time-out of one minute per year old or less. :(

       
Indeed. Obama is even still talking about cutting funding for the Alaskan Missile Defense Shield. Something the two senators from Alaska are now quite furious about and are using North Korea as an example of why that's complete lunacy. You'd also think Obama might want to protect Hawaii, since, you know, he's supposed to have been born there and all. Guess his status as an illegal alien is already having some serious national security repercussions. He doesn't give a rat's ass about this country and never has.

       
Superman [Anon] said:
Comment #3 Apr 6, 2009 7:00 am
Seriously Samson, there's little we can do. Invading North Korea would be a real war, and they'd probably kick our ass. The only option is boycotting them completely and letting them rot, which is more or less what is happening.

I liked how Turkey was one of the first foreign nations Obama visited, and how he demanded that the European Union let Turkey join. That's comparable to Gordon Brown coming here and demanding that we form a union with Mexico that allows all Mexicans to freely move, live and work in the US.

Bush did the same thing, demanding that the EU let Turkey join, though he was more political about it. I'm curious how accelerating the development of muslims taking over in Europe in 40 to 50 years and getting their hands on real military technology - which they'll promptly sell to their rich buddies in the middle east - is in our best interest.

       
You know, I may very well be sorely disappointed with 46% of the american population right now, and even more unhappy with the leader they've chosen for us despite my vote to the contrary, but my sense of national pride takes a bit of offense at the notion of the North Koreans being able to kick our butts in a real war. Especially if they lack Russia & China as allies/suppliers this time.

What is with the efforts to get Turkey into the EU?

       
Some agreement/disagreement with Superman mostly:

On the one hand, yes. Not that I'm really pleased with letting North Korea shoot missiles, albeit ones that are more likely intended for South Korea or Japan than us, around, but what are we seriously going to do about it?

We could shoot it down, sure, and maybe NK gets uppity and starts a war, and maybe they don't. Kim Jong-Il's frankly not a guy I expect to behave rationally.

Other than that, what've we really got that we can do to them? Not a whole lot, save for doing exactly what got done and thence possibly going the Iraq route, which is something we ought to do but aren't really in a place to do now.

Which is to sort of touch on the fact that our entire North Korea policy dating back about 20 years has been a huge failure for basically everybody, but not many really good options right now.

As far as the whole "lose the war" thing goes, I figure we could eventually win the thing, albeit in a way that involves us fighting to the last South Korean while we move a bunch of troops that are probably in Iraq and Afghanistan right now, thus possibly losing those conflicts. In any event, any possible war with North Korea must take into account that A) South Korea's got a very good chance of getting beat up hard; B) That whole terrain thing really really sucks; C) Just like last time, China may or may not find the presence of US armies on its border palatable.

Which is to say that now is not the time.

As far as Turkey goes, they're a reasonably moderate state with already strong ties to Europe and the US via NATO, etc, never mind the Turkish diaspora in Europe. So there's some ways in which Turkey in the EU could be a reasonable thing, although I'm not really up enough on the EU to really make that call.

All of that said, you're a bit behind the times on that whole military technology thing - Turkey already has various advanced US and European systems, some of which they build in Turkey (F-16s off top of my head, I may be wrong). That aside, you're aware that the Saudis, who you may remember, already have a fair number of things like M1 tanks, F-15s, etc, etc? So if they really wanted...

Having noted that, let us discuss how much having access to US-built F-14s helped out the radical Shia state in Iran. Quick answer: Not much.

       
I think the entire EU is nothing but a dismal failure, but I'm sure I'll be promptly told how wrong I am at some point. I'm still waiting to be proven wrong though. That said I doubt it matters much if Turkey joins, and frankly I don't think they really want to do they? If not, why push them into it?

If North Korea's only interest was in ballistic missiles with the range to reach South Korea and Japan, they've had those for 10 years. Ever since Clinton sent that fool Carter in there to "negotiate" with them. More like to sell us out as liberals always do.

If now is not the time to wipe them off the map, or at least decapitate them, then when is? Reagan would not have hesitated to blast that missile out of the sky and call Kim Jong Il's own bluff about starting a war with Japan he knows he'd lose handily. Personally if it were up to me I'd pull our troops out and let the entire peninsula burn. China would be forced to clean up their own back yard for a change.

       
Maybe what really needs to happen is just to have the CIA do what they do best, go pick a fight between China & North Korea while blaming the two for everything to the other one and then assassinate Kim in the process... er, wait, our country would never do anything like that...

As for the EU being a failure, I can't say, I never understood what they were supposed to be accomplishing to begin with beyond the creation of the Euro which was a joke at the time and has only gotten worse, from my perspective, since.

I'll concede that to beat NK we'd prolly have to sacrifice our current goals in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, but I'm not willing to concede that NK could take us. Yes, the terrain sucks, but we've had experience over there this time...

       
The_Fury [Anon] said:
Comment #8 Apr 6, 2009 7:02 pm

Have we not learned from the 14 years of endless defiance by Saddam Hussein that the Security Council will never actually back up their words with anything of substance?


Or have we not learned that your intelligence agencies have no idea what a weapon of mass destruction is, and that NK, like Iraq have nothing but spit wads and pea shooters. NK is about as much of a threat as the penguins of Antarctica and have the same military capabilities as Polar Bears. THe biggest threat to world security has been voted out of office (W) so i don't see what all the bother is about.

NK is a sovereign nation, they have a right to Nukes, a space program, Nuke power, bombs guns and planes and a right to have the same rights as the USA which has Nukes, et al.

It is very hypocritical to say NK cannot have nukes while the USA has enough to destroy the whole world 3 times over, either everyone can have them or no one can have them, its rather simple to me. Its just as stupid to say they cannot launch comms satalites while the USA has spy sats up there watching our every move.


Maybe what really needs to happen is just to have the CIA do what they do best, go pick a fight between China & North Korea while blaming the two for everything to the other one and then assassinate Kim in the process... er, wait, our country would never do anything like that...


Or maybe its about time the USA grew up and stopped trying to manipulate the wolrd for its own ends. There has not been 1 instance of this sort of thing ever haveing a payoff. Should be start with all the CIA games in South America and see where that got everyone, becised nowhere, or how about the CIA's good friend and allie Osama Bin Laden, or any number of puppet regimes set up in Africa by the CIA and co.

If the USA wants to play superior diplomat to the world maybe thet should be looking to real problems like Robert Mogabe in Zimbabwe or the problems in Darfur or Samali pirates or even the government of Somalia period.

There are plenty of situations that require URGENT action right now to solve and the US sits on its hands and plays political games with Commies. The cold war is over, the Korean and Vietnamese wars are over, Fidel died of natural causes, the Chinese are going to take over the world with its exports and cheep labour and we want to waste energy playing pissing games with a country where the donkey is the main form of transport, Go Figure HUH.

       
An Uninformed Moron said:

Or have we not learned that your intelligence agencies have no idea what a weapon of mass destruction is, and that NK, like Iraq have nothing but spit wads and pea shooters. NK is about as much of a threat as the penguins of Antarctica and have the same military capabilities as Polar Bears. THe biggest threat to world security has been voted out of office (W) so i don't see what all the bother is about.


I'm not even sure where to begin. I can only hazard a guess at one of two things: 1. Your media there filters out everything of substance that doesn't mention Australia. 2. Your school system sucks worse than the one here in California today and they never bothered to tell you that NK isn't a backward jungle tribe.

Our intelligence agencies know damn well what a WMD is. So do the other 15 agencies who also confirmed Saddam had them, and was preparing to use them. You can either believe that or believe the weapon fairies gave you death rays. Perhaps you also missed the fact that North Korea detonated their first nuclear weapon in 2006. I'll even hand you a nice wikipedia link so you can't say that I used a biased American media outlet as a source. That's substantially more than spitwads and pea shooters. And might I remind you that in the 1950s we fought them to a draw using our most advanced conventional forces of the time. So they've had substantially more than pea shooters and spitwads for quite some time now. You can thank China for that.

The biggest threat to world security just conducted a ballistic missile test in direct violation of UN Security Council resolutions and sanctions. So it wasn't a US initiative they violated by doing that. the second biggest threat to world security ( through appeasement and inaction ) was voted in to office in November and assumed command of our armed forces on January 20, 2009.

Let's get something straight. The UN has told NK they have no right to have nukes. They've told Iran the same thing, and told Saddam Hussein before both of them the same thing. Along with Syria, Lybia, and numerous other nations with hostile intent. It's not arrogance. It's prudence. You don't hand a psycho a loaded weapon. You provide the sane people the weapons. In this case, that's us, like it or not. You can cry all you want about how we're supposedly the world bully but until you can provide me one shred of evidence to prove where we've indiscriminately attacked someone with no reason you aren't qualified to judge dog shit for smell.

I'll allow Conner the honor of addressing your equally moronic and uninformed rant about CIA black ops. But really it's mostly cause I'm laughing too hard to continue.

       
I'm sorry, but after speaking with several friends in Australia, The_Fury appears to be in a minority of people there, known as rockchilds. Translation being, people who grew up under rocks, with no real interaction with the outside world. But, do carry on. I haven't laughed this hard in a while.

       
The_Fury said:

The cold war is over, the Korean and Vietnamese wars are over, Fidel died of natural causes, the Chinese are going to take over the world with its exports and cheep labour and we want to waste energy playing pissing games with a country where the donkey is the main form of transport, Go Figure HUH.


I missed this little gem.

The cold war is over - True. It is over.
The Korean and Vietnamese wars are over - Debatable. These were never officially wars for the US. They were UN Sanctioned Police Actions. We were there to assist the South Vietnamese, and the South Koreans.
Fidel died of natural causes - Last I checked, He was still very much alive. Sick and dying perhaps, but alive.
Blah blah Chinese takeover blah blah - Yep. They're taking over the world with cheap plastic toys and what not. Brilliant plan. Why didn't I think of doing this? Oh, because it wouldn't work. 180mm Depleted Uranium Shell > $4 plastic toy.
a country where the donkey is the main form of transport - Wow. You really do live under a rock don't you. Unless you can provide a source to back up these claims that North Korea, Who I might remind you, just launched a ballistic missile, still ride around on donkeys; I'm going to have to concede that it's easier and less of a headache for everyone involved to humor you rather than explain things.

Did you hear the latest rumors? The Moon Landing was staged. Elvis, Tupac, Aaliyah, Notorious B.I.G. and Jimmy Hoffa aren't really dead. THey helped stage the Moon landing, and they play the aliens people see in the sky. Btw, I heard you were looking for a couple of addresses, I think I can help you here.

Cupid
4 Love Ave
Mt Olympus, Greece

Tooth Fairy
1600 Toothy Grin Blvd
Fairytopia, Fairyland

Santa Claus
25 Workshop Way
North Pole, The Arctic

The Easter Bunny
The Rabbit Hole

The Mental Institution called, They found out you're missing, Fury, They'd like you to come home.

       
The_Fury [Anon] said:
Comment #12 Apr 7, 2009 2:55 am

Our intelligence agencies know damn well what a WMD is. So do the other 15 agencies who also confirmed Saddam had them, and was preparing to use them.


So where are these fictitious WMD? 16 US agencies with all the best intelligence in the world GOT IT WRONG with Sadam and have GOT IT WRONG again with NK.



Let's get something straight. The UN has told NK they have no right to have nukes. They've told Iran the same thing, and told Saddam Hussein before both of them the same thing. Along with Syria, Lybia, and numerous other nations with hostile intent.


Out of all these which of them are currently running a war? NONE. The US is currently running 2 wars, 1 based on the faulty premise that the Talliban were a threat to the world, even tho anyone with half a brain knew they did not care about anything that extended past their boarders and their own people, there is no proof that Osama, a creation of the CIA was actually hiding out there. Anyone find him yet? And the 2nd based on the fanciful idea that Sadam had WMD. Your government and its institutions has fucked up royally when it comes to its so called INTELLIGENCE agencies, so why should we believe them now that the point of this launch was to test a long range missile.


Let's get something straight. The UN has told NK they have no right to have nukes.


The UN also said that it would not sanction an invasion of Iraq, yet, the US, UK and Australia had no problem breaking those things and doing what it likes anyway. How can anyone have any faith in the actions of the UN when NO ONE ever has to obey what they decide. So if your county and mine can do its own thing, i see no reason why others should abide by a UN ruling.

Cant be hypocritical here, either we all play by the same rules or we can all do what we want, which means that NK, Iran and others can develop their own Nuke programs for peaceful or military ends.


You can cry all you want about how we're supposedly the world bully but until you can provide me one shred of evidence to prove where we've indiscriminately attacked someone with no reason you aren't qualified to judge dog shit for smell.


Where are the WMD in Iraq. This was the basis and the rational behind invading this country. Hans Blix knew there were no WMD, all the other inspectors knew there were no WMD, the only the US thought there were WMD, but less face it, a bomb and a barrel of oil look very simular dont they. $$ Chi Ching.

       
The_Fury [Anon] said:
Comment #13 Apr 7, 2009 3:08 am
Unless you can provide a source to back up these claims that North Korea, Who I might remind you, just launched a ballistic missile, still ride around on donkeys; I'm going to have to concede that it's easier and less of a headache for everyone involved to humor you rather than explain things.


SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_in_North_Korea

There is next to 0 private car ownership, road transport is minimal, the trains still run on steam power, domestic air transport consists of 34 outdated Russian planes. NK is a country that developmentally is still in the late 1800's, a time when the horse and cart ruled the road, hence the donkey comment. I wonder if our sanctions which stops them from having access to such top secret military secrets like modern farming practices, medical supplies and access to trade in food stuffs and the like has kept them there?

       
Edited by Samson on Feb 28, 2010 5:38 pm
The_Fury [Anon] said:
Comment #14 Apr 7, 2009 3:11 am

Better western estimates suggest the North Korean economy has contracted by around 5 per
cent annually for most of the past decade. Manufacturing production is around 10 per cent of
L E A D I N G A U S T R A L I A N B U S I N E S S
the level of the late 1980s, and reliant on Soviet era (1960s-1970s), even Japanese occupation
(1940s) era, technology. Energy resources are severely depleted.
The electricity shortage is at such a chronic level North Korean industry is reportedly
operating at around just 5 per cent of capacity.
Agricultural production is greatly strained by poor land use practices (just 20 per cent of land
is suitable for agricultural use; the remaining 80 per cent of North Korea is made up of
uninhabitable and non-arable mountains), while human resources are being run-down through
the lack of access to new ideas and technologies.


From paper from the Australian Chamber of Comerce SEE: http://www.acci.asn.au/text_files/issues_papers/Trade/TDE20.pdf

       
Superman [Anon] said:
Comment #15 Apr 7, 2009 9:17 am
I think The_Fury has backed up his claims quite well. The only WMDs Iraq had were the ones we gave them, and they used them on the Kurds.

North Korea isn't much different from Iraq, with the exception that the population in North Korea has an IQ around 105 while the IQ in Iraq is around 90, and Vietnam around 95. This might be meaningless to some people, but in the real world intelligence matters, and if we are to invade North Korea there are gonna be massive casualties on our side. The biggest problem 2nd world nations have is that while they sometimes can purchase advanced equipment, they don't have the people with the intelligence and training to operate it correctly.

On the bright side we wouldn't be dealing with Islam, so unlike the situation in Iraq, once the war is over it would be over for real. One argument that has been ignored is that we simply don't have the money to go after North Korea, it would be a disaster for our economy (long term) to borrow two trillion to go after North Korea. Not to mention it might give China the idea to go after Taiwan.

       
So where are these fictitious WMD? 16 US agencies with all the best intelligence in the world GOT IT WRONG with Sadam and have GOT IT WRONG again with NK.


They were in Syria. Two generals in Saddam's former army have both confirmed it on radio broadcasts on separate occasions. The Jordanian government confirmed a 3rd intercept of a large portion of Saddam's former chemical weapons capacity that was also on its way to Syria. Perhaps you recall a little incident where the Israelis destroyed a Syrian nuclear facility under construction? Yep. That's where Saddam's WMD's ended up. They're vapors in the wind now. Also, do some simple research. It wasn't 16 US agencies. It was 16 different agencies throughout Europe and the Middle East that all said Saddam had the weapons and was willing to use them. Saddam's own government claimed they had them. If Saddam was actually lying, it cost him his life in the end. Not terribly bright.

Out of all these which of them are currently running a war? NONE.


I believe that's exactly the point. The UN sanctions are meant to keep them from starting one, not stop one they're actively engaged in. But since you insist, North and South Korea are still in a state of war. The truce declared in the 1950s and enforced by the US since then is the only thing holding them back. So technically North Korea is still running a war.

based on the faulty premise that the Talliban were a threat to the world


Wrong. Based on the accurate premise that they are a threat to the world. Even the Pakistanis admit this, as we are currently allied with them to prevent them from taking over Pakistan now that we kicked their asses into oblivion in Afghanistan.

there is no proof that Osama, a creation of the CIA was actually hiding out there


No proof other than the Pakistanis and Afghans both saying he was there, no proof other than a nice little battle at Tora Bora, no proof other than the Pakistanis who now say he's hiding in the hills in the Kashmir region. If all of this is a lie, surely it's not in their best interests to keep up the appearance unless they want to be attacked. You'd think they might have learned a lesson from Saddam's mistakes if Saddam was actually lying too. Besides, conventional wisdom holds that Osama is dead and buried in a cave somewhere since nobody can prove they've seen him alive since then.

The UN also said that it would not sanction an invasion of Iraq


The UN never said any such thing. They were still planning to endlessly debate the issue when we got tired of waiting for them. It's what the UN does. Talk talk talk. Well talk never solved any of the world's problems with aggressive terrorist states. You'd think people would remember the disaster that was Carter and talk talk talk.

Where are the WMD in Iraq. This was the basis and the rational behind invading this country. Hans Blix knew there were no WMD, all the other inspectors knew there were no WMD, the only the US thought there were WMD, but less face it, a bomb and a barrel of oil look very simular dont they.


As I said before, in Syria, now up in smoke after the Israelis did what we lacked the balls to do ourselves. They'll end up having to blast the Iranian's nukes into dust as well. They're not foolish enough to go after NK though, and who can blame them? Unless of course one believes your fish story that all NK has are pea shooters and spitwads. I mean, seriously, come on.

I think The_Fury has backed up his claims quite well.


Then you're as deluded as he is if you think he's actually got anything of value to say after totally discrediting himself by claiming NK is a backward donkey riding nation with no military or weapons to speak of.

       
Superman [Anon] said:
Comment #17 Apr 7, 2009 12:34 pm
Then you're as deluded as he is if you think he's actually got anything of value to say after totally discrediting himself by claiming NK is a backward donkey riding nation with no military or weapons to speak of.

I think Furey backed up that NK is a backward donkey riding nation. Doesn't mean they don't have a powerful and well trained military, or a population that like South Korea and Japan has proved to be very capable of achieving 1st world status under capitalism.

I take the whole WMD thing with a grain of salt, even if true it doesn't change the fact that going into Iraq and Afghanistan was a total waste of lives and resources. It's a lot easier to hand Israel 10 billion a year to keep its military strong and occasionally bomb a nuclear installation.

       
You might also take notice I wasn't the one disputing his donkey riding claim. Mexicans still ride them too, but anyone with any common sense also knows that's not all there is to the place and that there are other modes of transportation. There would have to be for a nation advanced enough to wield a ballistic missile program.

Israel had no reason to go to war with Afghanistan. Unsurprisingly, because the Afghans weren't interested in attacking them either. I'm actually rather surprised that you figure it was a waste of our time since even the most liberal of liberals I've debated the two wars with sees Afghanistan as perfectly justified since they actually attacked us. Even our tin god president thinks the war in Afghanistan is justified.

Iraq is less clear to them because they don't understand preemptive defense. Bush did, and there's every reason to believe he picked that up from the Israelis who clearly understand it. I understand it, which is why I continue to stand behind the Iraq War. All 18 years of it.

I suppose Fury thinks they're a democracy too since they're called "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" and he can even provide wikipedia links to back up his claims :P

       
The_Fury [Anon] said:
Comment #19 Apr 7, 2009 2:37 pm

Afghanistan as perfectly justified since they actually attacked us.


Bullshit. It was Alquada that attacked you, an organization that has no country and no boarders, who was based inside the USA. It was just expedient for the US to use this an an excuse to attack Afghanistan, we are all so dumb that we cannot read the history books to see that a war in Afghanistan can never be won, just like we could not win in Vietnam. The Russians tried this and failed, we will try this and fail, so there there has to be a better way.

So lets see if you can bring yourselves to more personal insults, it does make you look all clever. :)

       
The personal insults appear to be most effective though in exposing your complete ignorance. Al Qaeda is not based in the US, and anyone who thinks that has been drinking the conspiracy theory kool-aid for far too long to be taken seriously in anything. Prior to 9/11 we had no interest in bothering with Afghanistan other than to make life rough for the Russians in 1980. It's called a war by proxy. We are in fact the reason the Russians failed. Had we stayed out of it they'd have squashed the place like a bug. We will never know if that would have been a good thing or not.

Al Qaeda made their home in Afghanistan. The country was run by the Taliban, an organization who freely admitted they wished to see America burn. They got their wish, and we made them pay for it. Now they're nothing more than a rogue band of thugs who wander the mountains picking random fights with our soldiers - and losing 99% of the time. Attrition will see to it they don't bother anyone in another year or two. Your own government supports this action, so clearly we are not alone in wanting to see it brought to an end. It's only those pansy appeasers in Europe who refuse to fight.

And for your information, we had Vietnam in the bag, despite what the liberal media told you. It was the appeaser Democrats who "lost" us that war by convincing our own people that we'd lost and then crippling our forces by cutting off funding to them. Yeah, great way to support your troops overseas. Sound familiar at all? It should unless you live under a rock, which I'm becoming increasingly convinced you do with every passing moment. Come back when you have real and actual evidence of our "defeat" because I can assure you that none of it will be backed up with facts and firsthand accounts from the people who actually served there. Hint: ABC News is not the keeper of facts. They are a tool of propagandists.

And a general FYI, all wars can be won. It's just a matter of how many of them you're willing to kill doing it. The Ocean of Glass method would pretty clearly put an end to Afghanistan if we chose to do so. Since we're such imperialist monsters, perhaps you can explain why we haven't?

Oh, and: Fidel Castro is not dead.

       
The_Fury [Anon] said:
Comment #21 Apr 7, 2009 3:00 pm

Al Qaeda is not based in the US


I never said the whole organization was, but the ones who flew the planes into buildings were based in the usa and had been for many years

       
Yes you did:

Bullshit. It was Alquada that attacked you, an organization that has no country and no boarders, who was based inside the USA.

       
The_Fury [Anon] said:
Comment #23 Apr 7, 2009 4:44 pm
That statement is factual, the al queda who attacked the USA were based in the USA, it in no way implies that the whole organization was based in the USA.

Remembering that you stated that it was Afghanistan who lead the attacks, How many Afghans where among the bombers? 0 So what nationality were the bombers, Mostly Saudi Arabians. OH wait, why did we not bomb the fuck out of Saudi Arabia? Because they already give us their oil.

       
Backpeddling attempt: FAIL.

You never said anything about the particular attackers being based here. You made a blanket statement about the entire organization being based here.

The nationalities of the attackers is irrelevant. They were not here at the behest of the Saudi monarch. They were here at the behest of the Taliban government in Afghanistan, and as such were working more or less for them. Your logic is about as solid as my saying Australia is to blame for our illegal alien problems with Mexico because some of the illegals who cross the border happen to be Australian. Or that Peru is responsible for the holocaust in Germany because some Peruvians moved to Germany and took part in the killings. Where someone is born has very little to do with what they're doing now and who they're doing it for.

       
The_Fury [Anon] said:
Comment #25 Apr 7, 2009 4:52 pm
There was also a United Arab Eremites and and Egyptian, and a few unknowns, but the vast majority were from Saudi, Do you remember that Osama Bin Ladin was Saudi also, there seems to be a strong theme here and its all Saudi. And guess what, there is not a single Afghan among them, i have a lot of Afghan friends, who grew up during the Russian war and with the Taliban, maybe you should ask them what they think on the matter.

       
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