Stand Before the American People

The Honorable Nancy Pelosi
Office of the Speaker
H232 Capitol
Washington, DC 20515

Dear Speaker Pelosi:

It appears the House of Representatives will proceed with plans to vote this weekend on President Obama’s health care legislation, despite the well-documented objections of the American people to both the contents of the bill and the manner in which the Democratic leadership hopes to pass it.

This weekend’s votes will be among the most consequential votes we will ever cast as Members of Congress. As such, it is my belief that every Member should stand before the American people and announce his or her vote as the final decision is made.

With this in mind, I request that you use your discretion under the Rules of the House of Representatives, Clause 2 and 3 of House Rule XX, to conduct the record vote by call of the roll for both adoption of the Senate health care bill (i.e. the Senate Amendment to H.R. 3590, as passed on Christmas Eve this past year) and for the rule making that bill in order.

Thank you for your consideration of this request.

Sincerely,

John Boehner


(Signed PDF copy of the above)

As you should all know by now, President Obama's healthcare bill (aka Obamacare) is coming up for a vote today in the House of Representatives. Our country now stands at a crossroads of history the likes of which we've not seen since World War II or 9/11. The political wrangling over this bill has been going on now since the day Obama took office and handed them the legislation to consider. Almost from the beginning, Republicans have been steadfastly opposed to this bill because of the enormous cost it would impose and the enormous damage it will do to our deficit. Some waffling went on back and forth which ended up allowing a floor vote in the US Senate in December of 2009 where the bill passed on a straight party-line vote of 60-40. However, because the bill the Senate passed was not the same as the one the House had passed before that, it needed to be reconciled. That debate has now been going on for the last three months.

I doubt I need to go into the myriad of back room deals, closed door meetings, and outright bribery that's been going on to get this thing to where we are today. That we are even at this point is terrifying enough. A health bill in which all Americans will be mandated BY LAW to purchase coverage or face fines imposed by the IRS, whether or not they can actually afford it. Never before in the history of the United States has the Federal government ever amassed the kind of power this bill would give them over our lives. The fact that Congress had to pull all sorts of shady deals such as the Cornhusker Kickback, the Louisiana Purchase, and other forms of bribery and extortion to get this to this point should have told them something that's been loud and clear for the last 15 months: The American People don't want this bill.

Polls show that the majority of Americans do not support this bill. So why are the Democrats trying so hard to shove this down our throats despite the overwhelming opposition? It's part of their progressive agenda. If you don't believe me, then perhaps Nancy Pelosi can fill you in herself.
Nancy Pelosi said:

"We won that fight, and once we kick through this door, there'll be more legislation to follow."
Oh really now? Suppose we don't want that either, are you going to resort to the same dirty back room tactics you had to use to push Obamacare to this vote? Will you end up simply deeming future bills to have passed, like you stopped short of this time?

I will concede, we need reform of the current system in this country. What we don't need is Cuban style socialized medicine to do it. Why not instead attack the problems with Medicare? Implement tort reforms to bring down trial costs for BS lawsuits. Start deporting the illegal aliens, who are ultimately the real cause of why our medical system is in such disarray. I might even be willing to go so far as to allow government to subsidies drug research so that the costs of medications can come down, and shorten the time it takes to get FDA approvals. Surely there has to be something we can do to fix the government run system we already have that doesn't require a nearly 3,000 page bill nobody has read to create an entirely new system.

Whatever you Democrats decide to do, just remember, we voters have a long memory, and many of you are hurting badly in the polls already and only hurting more as time goes by. Pass this bill, and watch your majorities vanish come November. To John Boehner and the Republicans, stand fast, we're behind you on this one all the way.
.........................
"It is pointless to resist, my son." -- Darth Vader
"Resistance is futile." -- The Borg
"Mother's coming for me in the dragon ships. I don't like these itchy clothes, but I have to wear them or it frightens the fish." -- Thurindil

Well. I guess that's that then.

       
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Posted on Mar 21, 2010 2:28 am by Samson in: | 216 comment(s) [Closed]
Comments
Count me in as standing behind John Boehner and the Republicans on this one too.

I had wondered if you were going to cover this vote before it took place or not, glad to see it didn't sneak past you despite the oddity of it being on a Sunday.

       
I will say this for John Boehner. He's rocking that green tie.

       
Well, there you have it. Regardless of his political position or the issues at hand, we all have to stand behind him unilaterally without any partisanship because Dwip approves of his fashion sense. :tongue: :lol:

       
Why do you think I picked that picture of him? It is a killer tie, and suit. Not all undead Iguanadons lack fashion sense :)

       
I guess it's sort of a sad personal commentary that I hadn't even looked at the picture long enough to get past the strange facial look and notice the tie he was wearing until Dwip said something. :redface: I was much more interested in the politics of the situation... :lol:

       
I want to know how illegal immigrants have crippled the health system, you have a user pays system, so like all users, the immigrants have to pay also to access the services, which ultimately, puts money into the economy. Same said immigrants work in dead end jobs that no one else wants to work in, which again puts money back into the economy. I do not see a problem with this, its not like i am or anyone else here is going to get off their lazy fat asses and shovel shit, clean toilets, sweep streets, drive a taxi, pick fruit or work at the local quicky mart.

The reason our countries have a problem with illegal immigration in the first play is because we have entire sectors that none of us will work in because the work is low paid and demeaning. Go try driving a taxi for 12 hours a day for about 8 bucks an hour or delivering catalogs to peoples letterboxes for about 5 bucks an hour, i sure as hell wont do it and i am sure a shit that everyone here would rather be unemployed than to demean themselves to such levels, but there are people who will happily do it, here its the Indians, for you its the Mexicans. Take them out of the economy and things will go to the crap house because do one is willing to do the hard work.


Oh and John Boner just does not look trustworthy to me :).

       
Edited by The_Fury on Mar 21, 2010 4:22 pm
Well, with regard to a "user pays" system, you're wrong. If you show up at the ER, they are required by law to treat you. They may send you a bill, but if you're an illegal chances are you've provided false information to begin with. You therefore never pay, and that cost gets passed on to those of us who do in the form of higher insurance costs (for those of us who have it).

The street sweeper guy in Chino is white, 55 years old, and has been driving that truck around the city for 30 years. He makes way more than any $5/hr. The owner of the 711 down the street is white, and hires whoever is best qualified for the job. He's got 2 black guys, 1 Mexican, and the rest are either Arabs or whites. They also make considerably more than $5/hr. Since the US has modern sewage systems, there's not a huge need for shit shovelers like there is in places like India. For those folks who do work in sewage treatment, they get paid huge money and require college degrees and make WAY more than $5/hr. Postal carriers in San Bernardino County make upwards of $15/hr delivering catalogs to our mailboxes. So you're pretty much left with picking fruit and cleaning toilets as jobs illegals do here. An increasingly large number of orchard owners are switching to machine pickers, thus eliminating the need to pay anyone but the equipment operator - who makes WAY more than $5/hr.

So I'm having a hard time seeing how taking the toilet cleaning illegal aliens out of our economy is going to have much of an impact on things, other than public restrooms being dirtier than usual. Sane people don't use public facilities anyway unless they're looking to pick up a 3rd world disease.

Your definition of an illegal alien is a bit interesting. Last I checked, Aborigines are native to Australia. They were there before the Brits dropped off your white folk. Much like the Apache, Cherokee, Lakota, Seminole, and mountains of other tribes were here before England colonized North America. Oh, and they were also here before Cortez showed up and killed the Aztecs. Mexicans descend from Spanish colonization of North America.

The United States fought a war in 1849 against Mexico and seized territory as victory spoils. We also purchased a considerable chunk of land in what is now Arizona. The current southern border with the US has not changed since the Gadsen Purchase. This was 160+ years ago, so there's nobody left alive today who can claim to be a displaced Mexican citizen as a result of the war. The argument that "the border crossed me" is no longer valid and hasn't been for over a century.

Next time you decide to fling unfounded propaganda, be prepared to offer evidence to back it up, yes?

       
For starters leave my Medicare alone... LOL

As for the immigrants crippling the health care system... They are.. They come here and get on Medicaid and get free health care and not have to pay to get any of it.. Which fills up the few free slots and lowers the limits needed to get on it.. Which in turn cause those like us, me on disability and Conner required to be here 24/7 so not easily able to go get a job, unable to get on it because the little that I get out of my disability is more then the limits, which is not even enough to start to cover bills, let alone go see a doctor and have to pay them too, even with my Medicare, of which I have to pay 20% of an appointment with out Medicaid, to help cover that I can't go... After I got released back in August from the hospital with pneumonia I lost my Medicaid and have not been back to see a doctor since.. *shrug*

We do what we have to... Be it cleaning toilets, shoveling shit, or what not... We moved out to our farm a year ago and we pick fruit... I know that I have done almost everything on that list you listed out at one point or another, except for driving a taxi.. But you know if I could get someone to give me or Conner a job doing that right now we would take it in a heartbeat... I think that if we did get rid of the immigrants then we would be better off, that would open those jobs up to all these that we have on unemployment or unemployed and you know what, right now people are bad off enough they would betaking those jobs too...

       
Back on subject:

Fox News said:

The House voted 224-206 Sunday to approve the rules for debate of a massive health insurance overhaul that evidently satisfies few but is viewed by House Democrats as better than nothing.


So it looks like they spent the entire day voting on the rules by which the actual bill can be debated. Or rather the lack of some sort of rule that wasn't specified. I don't know, it just says 28 Democrats joined with Republicans to vote against "the rule". They still have to take a floor vote on the actual bill, and then on the fixes to the bill the Senate passed. So apparently this isn't over just yet.

       
Talking Points Memo said:

With regard to the sequence of votes this evening, some changes since what we reported yesterday. The House has taken up the Senate bill first and will vote on it after two hours of allotted debating time. Then they will move immediately to the reconciliation bill that amends the Senate bill they will have, presumably, just passed. The final votes are expected sometime after 10 p.m.


So there's that. They're also saying the Dems have the required votes to pass everything, which presumably makes me the token happy person on this blog.

As far as the illegals thing goes, it is in fact the case that ERs are required by law to treat whoever shows up, whoever they might be. I'm given to understand through reading the writings of various healthcare professionals that this manifests itself in lots of ways - Samson's area presumably gets a ton of illegals, but it's the homeless and junkies and whoever in other places. Either way, the cost does get passed on to the rest of us. There are some problems with that, but that's neither here nor there.

Too, without going too far into the whole "jobs other people won't do" debate (I've done my share of agricultural work and factory work, for what that's worth), one notes that in OR, the illegal employers are generally farmers and factories. One of our Senators (the Republican, funnily enough), got hit with a scandal about that a while back. Not sure what the big sectors are in CT.

A couple of comments on the actual post:

Samson said:

The fact that Congress had to pull all sorts of shady deals such as the Cornhusker Kickback, the Louisiana Purchase, and other forms of bribery and extortion


My understanding is that a lot of these, the Nebraska thing in specific, are going away with the reconciliation, for what that's worth.

Samson said:

opposed to this bill because of the enormous cost it would impose and the enormous damage it will do to our deficit.


Boy does the Congressional Budget Office not agree with you. Unless by "damage" you mean "make it smaller."

Samson said:

Whatever you Democrats decide to do, just remember, we voters have a long memory, and many of you are hurting badly in the polls already and only hurting more as time goes by. Pass this bill, and watch your majorities vanish come November.


Because, secretly, in your heart of hearts, you KNEW you were going to vote Dem in November, if only it hadn't been for that pesky health care bill, and those meddling kids! :P

I kind of hate this P smiley. Too much D, not enough P for my liking.

       
Edited by Dwip on Mar 21, 2010 5:10 pm
I don't care what sort of twisted logic the CBO used, it's a spending bill, and you cannot convince me no matter what that another spending bill above and beyond what we're already spending won't increase the deficit. You'd need to come up with some seriously convincing evidence to the contrary before anyone with a brain would buy that one.

       
it's a spending bill, and you cannot convince me no matter what that another spending bill above and beyond what we're already spending won't increase the deficit


Spending on wars we don't need to have is OK but spending on peoples health is not OK, i see something wrong with the logic in this. If you were all for spending cuts and budgetary restraint, i can show you where to save 1 trillion dollars from the budget, Iraq.

The street sweeper guy in Chino is white, 55 years old, and has been driving that truck around the city for 30 years. He makes way more than any $5/hr. The owner of the 711 down the street is white, and hires whoever is best qualified for the job. He's got 2 black guys, 1 Mexican, and the rest are either Arabs or whites. They also make considerably more than $5/hr. Since the US has modern sewage systems, there's not a huge need for shit shovelers like there is in places like India. For those folks who do work in sewage treatment, they get paid huge money and require college degrees and make WAY more than $5/hr. Postal carriers in San Bernardino County make upwards of $15/hr delivering catalogs to our mailboxes. So you're pretty much left with picking fruit and cleaning toilets as jobs illegals do here. An increasingly large number of orchard owners are switching to machine pickers, thus eliminating the need to pay anyone but the equipment operator - who makes WAY more than $5/hr.


Errr i guess some of my examples are country specific, by street sweeper i mean a guy pushing a broom, not someone driving a truck, shoveling shit is a generic term here for crap job that goes nowhere and pays somewhere between nothing and minimum wage, Letterbox deliveries of junk mail are not done here by the postal service, its done by small contractors who get payed between 11 and 16 bucks per thousand catalogs delivered.

Point is not so much in the specifics of the jobs, but that there are high vacancies in low payed unskilled jobs and that these jobs get filled by illegal immigrants, here in Australia these jobs are mostly filled by Indian students and backpackers. These types of jobs are the ones that you nor I want to do, nor would do even if we had to.

In my own business i cannot get laborers, well not ones that last more than a week, and that's with paying over the award. So we fill the short term gaps with students and backpackers. You would think that we had no unemployment here, with how picky people are with work, but there is 7% or so, similar to what you have in the States currently and yet, no one wants to work. I could hire 5 people tomorrow if they would turn up for work after they get their first pay checks, so we just dont bother wasting time and effort in getting people through job agencies.

       
Man, I missed a flurry in this one...

The_Fury said:

I want to know how illegal immigrants have crippled the health system, you have a user pays system, so like all users, the immigrants have to pay also to access the services, which ultimately, puts money into the economy. Same said immigrants work in dead end jobs that no one else wants to work in, which again puts money back into the economy. I do not see a problem with this, its not like i am or anyone else here is going to get off their lazy fat asses and shovel shit, clean toilets, sweep streets, drive a taxi, pick fruit or work at the local quicky mart.

The reason our countries have a problem with illegal immigration in the first play is because we have entire sectors that none of us will work in because the work is low paid and demeaning. Go try driving a taxi for 12 hours a day for about 8 bucks an hour or delivering catalogs to peoples letterboxes for about 5 bucks an hour, i sure as hell wont do it and i am sure a shit that everyone here would rather be unemployed than to demean themselves to such levels, but there are people who will happily do it, here its the Indians, for you its the Mexicans. Take them out of the economy and things will go to the crap house because do one is willing to do the hard work.

Oh and John Boner just does not look trustworthy to me . :)

While Samson, my wife, and then Dwip all pretty much covered, I still want to get my two cents in too :tongue:
As Samson and Dragona both pointed out, our system isn't quite set-up the way you're thinking. Only citizens with jobs actually pay into the general economy through medical expenses. Illegals qualify for medicaid AND take full advantage of the fact that, being illegal aliens, they can't be forced to pay bills anyway. Having chosen the life of farming/ranching, I obviously don't have a problem either shoveling shit or picking fruit and, at one time or another in my past, I've specifically done every job you mentioned except driving a taxi, and I've played chaufeur in the past for various folks too that it would've been awfully nice to have gotten paid for at the time.

Again, as Samson already mentioned, I rather thought that the aboriginies were there before you which rather makes them naural citizens despite what your people want to acknowledge. Here it's much more than the Mexicans who are a problem due to being illegal aliens. Perhaps you've heard the saying that "America is the great melting pot"? We've got folks slipping into this country from just about every other place out there, and all of them expect to find jobs here which displace our citizens and most of them abuse our healthcare system which causes morons like Obama to think we need to rewrite the healthcare system from the ground up to "fix" the problem and... but the Mexicans are the ones you hear the most about because they're the predominate ones in Samson's area (my area too, actually) because Samson (and I) live close to the Mexican border.

John looks s trustworthy to me as any other politician - but, honestly, judging someone'strustworthiness by their appearance seems a totally irrational thing to me anyway.

Samson said:

Next time you decide to fling unfounded propaganda, be prepared to offer evidence to back it up, yes?

As much as I like The_Fury, especially compared to some who've visited here in the past, he does argue silly positions without supporting evidence frequently, doesn't he? :(

Dragona said:

For starters leave my Medicare alone... LOL

Actually, there are many facets of Medicare that do need addressing, but frankly what Obama has in mind, from what I've read, is not going to help the situation at all, but will instead nearly cripple states that are already struggling to maintain it. :(

Samson said:

[url=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/21/dems-predict-historic-health-care-vote/Fox News[/url said:

]The House voted 224-206 Sunday to approve the rules for debate of a massive health insurance overhaul that evidently satisfies few but is viewed by House Democrats as better than nothing.

So it looks like they spent the entire day voting on the rules by which the actual bill can be debated. Or rather the lack of some sort of rule that wasn't specified. I don't know, it just says 28 Democrats joined with Republicans to vote against "the rule". They still have to take a floor vote on the actual bill, and then on the fixes to the bill the Senate passed. So apparently this isn't over just yet.

Lovely, so the Democrats still have enough of a majority to push this through even with an unpopular vote, but we don't get to have the final results officially in for at least a couple more hours yet... how nice. :(

Dwip said:

Samson said:

The fact that Congress had to pull all sorts of shady deals such as the Cornhusker Kickback, the Louisiana Purchase, and other forms of bribery and extortion

My understanding is that a lot of these, the Nebraska thing in specific, are going away with the reconciliation, for what that's worth.

I'm not sure that it really counts for anything, the fact remains that to get here they had to pull all sorts of nasty backroom deals and other underhanded acts, and they've already told us that this is just the grand entrance and they have plenty more in store for us once this drama finishes playing out. :(

Samson said:

Dwip said:

Samson said:

opposed to this bill because of the enormous cost it would impose and the enormous damage it will do to our deficit.

Boy does the Congressional Budget Office not agree with you. Unless by "damage" you mean "make it smaller."

I don't care what sort of twisted logic the CBO used, it's a spending bill, and you cannot convince me no matter what that another spending bill above and beyond what we're already spending won't increase the deficit. You'd need to come up with some seriously convincing evidence to the contrary before anyone with a brain would buy that one.

I'm entirely with Samson on this one, how can you possibly lower the deficit by adding to it?? :rolleyes:

Dwip said:

Because, secretly, in your heart of hearts, you KNEW you were going to vote Dem in November, if only it hadn't been for that pesky health care bill, and those meddling kids!

:lol: ROFL :lol:
Very nicely put, and very funny too. But you know what he really meant. It's not that folks like Samson or I were likely to vote Democratic this November anyway, it's that all those people who voted Obama into office to begin with that are now kicking themselves in the backside for being such idiots for having done so will certainly not forget the insults being added to the injuries by this vote and will alert their various elected officials to their new feelings resoundingly come the next popular election. At least, that's what a sane and intelligent peoples would do, it's hard to say for sure with the madness controlled mob we've got hitting the polls in America lately. :(

       
Damn, I typed all that up and Fury came back and posted before I was done...

The_Fury said:

Spending on wars we don't need to have is OK but spending on peoples health is not OK, i see something wrong with the logic in this. If you were all for spending cuts and budgetary restraint, i can show you where to save 1 trillion dollars from the budget, Iraq.

I still don't believe that Iraq was a war we didn't need, I just think it should've been finished by Bush Sr. instead of restarted by Bush Jr. And, no, spending on people's health isn't a priority when the people in question are here illegally.

The_Fury said:

Errr i guess some of my examples are country specific, by street sweeper i mean a guy pushing a broom, not someone driving a truck, shoveling shit is a generic term here for crap job that goes nowhere and pays somewhere between nothing and minimum wage, Letterbox deliveries of junk mail are not done here by the postal service, its done by small contractors who get payed between 11 and 16 bucks per thousand catalogs delivered.

Yup, I've still done all those jobs myself in the past.

The_Fury said:

Point is not so much in the specifics of the jobs, but that there are high vacancies in low payed unskilled jobs and that these jobs get filled by illegal immigrants, here in Australia these jobs are mostly filled by Indian students and backpackers. These types of jobs are the ones that you nor I want to do, nor would do even if we had to.

Here we have day laborers for jobs like that in many places and I've done that too, but in many places here day labor jobs are taken first by the illegal immigrants and freshly released felons because they can't get other job, unfortunately they end to create an earned reputation wherever they're used that scares the public and employers alike. You see, many of the people currently engaged in those jobs are much more interested in raping and pillaging than pushing a shovel.

The_Fury said:

In my own business i cannot get laborers, well not ones that last more than a week, and that's with paying over the award. So we fill the short term gaps with students and backpackers. You would think that we had no unemployment here, with how picky people are with work, but there is 7% or so, similar to what you have in the States currently and yet, no one wants to work. I could hire 5 people tomorrow if they would turn up for work after they get their first pay checks, so we just dont bother wasting time and effort in getting people through job agencies.

What is it that you're asking them to do that's so offensive? If you were here in this country, as long as you're paying at least minimum wage, I'd probably be perfectly content to work for you at this point.
Actually, our current overall unemployment is down to 10.4% according to the U.S. Department of Labor, as of last month, that's quite a bit higher than 7%, wouldn't you say?

       
The_Fury said:

Spending on wars we don't need to have is OK but spending on peoples health is not OK, i see something wrong with the logic in this. If you were all for spending cuts and budgetary restraint, i can show you where to save 1 trillion dollars from the budget, Iraq.


I see nothing wrong with the logic at all. The Iraq War of 1991 (you can't legally be referring to any other) was properly declared by Congress. Since war is a foreign policy matter, and under the sole discretion of the Commander in Chief, that makes it one of the few valid powers given to the Federal Government by our Constitution. The President has a great deal of leeway in that authority, especially once Congress declares war.

Contrary to the NY Times assertion that there is a right to healthcare, you can't find it in the Constitution anywhere. So the Feds have no legal authority to even set it up, and didn't have any legal authority to do it with Medicare either. Thus any money they spend on it now is unconstitutional. It's a matter for the states to decide in accordance with the 10th Amendment.

       
@Conner: Nice Google graph. Click on California, and weep with me as our pain here becomes much clearer.

       
Samson said:

I see nothing wrong with the logic at all. The Iraq War of 1991 (you can't legally be referring to any other) was properly declared by Congress. Since war is a foreign policy matter, and under the sole discretion of the Commander in Chief, that makes it one of the few valid powers given to the Federal Government by our Constitution. The President has a great deal of leeway in that authority, especially once Congress declares war.

Yes, there's that to consider as well. Technically the current situation in Iraq isn't actually a war.. of course, ultimately neither were either Korea or Vietnam at the time. But setting that detail aside, war is entirely and constitutionally under the perview of our President's legal powers once congressdeclares that it is a war we're involved in.

Samson said:

Contrary to the NY Times assertion that there is a right to healthcare, you can't find it in the Constitution anywhere. So the Feds have no legal authority to even set it up, and didn't have any legal authority to do it with Medicare either. Thus any money they spend on it now is unconstitutional. It's a matter for the states to decide in accordance with the 10th Amendment.

:sigh: I was hoping that we wouldn't go here. Sadly, you've got an entirely valid point. But I know Dragona and I would be in far worse shape than we are currently if there was no Medicare. By the same token, income tax was unconstitutional as well until congress passed the 16th amendment in 1913. Or, for a look at the other side of the argument, recently there was a world wide poll indicating that the majority of people in the world believe that high speed broadband internet access is a natural right for all peoples, and several countries already have laws in place to that effect as well, should we therefore be adding another constitutional amendment to grant congress the power to ensure that all Americans have access to high speed broadband internet? The FCC is already working on a plan to try to make that one happen too...

Samson said:

@Conner: Nice Google graph. Click on California, and weep with me as our pain here becomes much clearer.

Yeah, I see what you mean about California sitting at 13.2%. :cry: I don't expect that Texas or Virginia, let alone New Mexco, are doing much better either, but my internet isn't exactly truly high speed broadband and I don't feel like waiting on the flash that chart is based on to finish loading each. :sigh:

       
Edited by Conner on Mar 21, 2010 7:10 pm
Note: Boehner is making a speech right now to wrap up debate before the vote, and he is wearing a very boring tie. Without the power of the green tie, surely he is doomed.

       
Bummer, I missed the tie. OTOH, Democratic victory in this will not be due to Pelosi's crazy Mardi Gras necklace and desperate need, unlike Obama, for the teleprompter. The lavender suit is trying to forge ahead, but...

[edit] "discriminigate" [/edit]

[edit again] Oh, CNN has the tie. No yellow, dude. Go back to the green. Or that pink one you had at one point. [/edit]

       
Edited by Dwip on Mar 21, 2010 7:23 pm
AP seems pretty excited about it too, I'm getting "breaking news alerts" from them left and right currently. So far, it's sounding like the damn thing's going to pass too. :(

Wow, Dwip.. you're lovng that edit function, aren't you? :lol:

       
Edited by Conner on Mar 21, 2010 7:29 pm
Well we are all screwed now.. it passed :sad: :headbang:

       
Well, for the most part, but it's not law yet, it still has to be re-approved by the Senate then signed by the President, but I think we can be fairly confident that Obama's not going to decide to veto this one...

       
The United States officially becomes a fascist nation on Tuesday. My understanding of how this reconciliation process works is that they only need 51 votes to pass it, and Obama is certainly not going to veto it.

Conner, how soon before Texas secedes? I need a new place to live.

       
Edited by Samson on Mar 21, 2010 10:08 pm
Kansas City Star said:

Would I have to have health insurance?

Yes, or pay a penalty of 2.5 percent of your income. Hardship and religious waivers would be available, and some very low-wage earners would be exempt. The requirement would begin in 2013.

People who don’t get insurance and don’t pay the penalty face fines and possibly jail time.

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2009/11/07/1556149/democrats-health-care-bill-has.html#ixzz0isd29sa2


Just in case anyone questions the validity of the fascist claim. It's all there people. Refuse to pay, you go to jail, and this was only back in November 2009. I can find no evidence that the provision to assess fines or prison time was ever removed from the language. It's time to get your guns folks. You Feds may as well come pick me up now cause I'm not paying.

If only the House had listened to him: http://video.foxnews.com/v/4118241/boehner-shame-on-us

       
Edited by Samson on Mar 21, 2010 11:26 pm
Samson said:

Conner, how soon before Texas secedes? I need a new place to live.

While I would certainly support the movement, you ask as if I'm the one dictating it's terms. :lol:

Samson said:

Just in case anyone questions the validity of the fascist claim. It's all there people. Refuse to pay, you go to jail, and this was only back in November 2009. I can find no evidence that the provision to assess fines or prison time was ever removed from the language. It's time to get your guns folks. You Feds may as well come pick me up now cause I'm not paying.

It's funny you should mention this, Dragona and Runter and I just had a debate (of sorts) with Cratylus and Koron about the same thing tonight on inews, it went as follows (Fair warning, this is lengthy...):
inews chat logs said:

[Sun Mar 21 20:13:53 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: seems a sad commentary that the BBC is the first to bring us the story about the House having passed the Health Care Bill...
[Sun Mar 21 20:14:31 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: maybe the US news media is busy mourning it's passage...
[Sun Mar 21 20:17:39 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: i was watching it like on msnbc.com
[Sun Mar 21 20:17:53 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: and it was on the front page of cnn also, also live streaming
[Sun Mar 21 20:18:12 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: blame megabot for bbc's feed being the first to report it here
[Sun Mar 21 20:18:23 2010] [Server02:inews] Newbie02@Talon: different rss feeds, different stories, different timing
[Sun Mar 21 20:18:30 2010] [Server02:inews] Newbie02@Talon: also it doesnt check them all at the same time
[Sun Mar 21 20:19:00 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: 219 votes, even a few more than they needed
[Sun Mar 21 20:19:15 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I can't imagine having watched it live, that's gotta rate as about as boring as it gets.. but, okay, I'm willing to scape goat megabot over this one. ;)
[Sun Mar 21 20:19:19 2010] [Server02:inews] Exodus@DRM-dev: So it's not news until megabot tells us it is then :p
[Sun Mar 21 20:19:41 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: the usa can finally join the rest of modern industrial democracies in not leaving its citizens to die needlessly
[Sun Mar 21 20:19:51 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: Conner@LandOfLegends nods in agreement to Exodus@DRM-dev.
[Sun Mar 21 20:20:19 2010] [Server02:inews] Exodus@DRM-dev: Yeah, we can die purposefully now :)
[Sun Mar 21 20:20:46 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: well i guess if you think that people who can't afford doctors dont deserve them, you have something to mourn tonight
[Sun Mar 21 20:20:57 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: aye, Crat, now we can all die as paupers having funded Obama's desires instead or needlessly...
[Sun Mar 21 20:21:03 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: other than that, i expect americans to be glad of this historic day
[Sun Mar 21 20:21:23 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I'll grant you the historic part of that.
[Sun Mar 21 20:21:25 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: a day that ranks up there with the passage of civil rights
[Sun Mar 21 20:21:30 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: social security
[Sun Mar 21 20:21:43 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: women's suffrage
[Sun Mar 21 20:21:51 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: well ok that was an amendment
[Sun Mar 21 20:22:05 2010] [Server02:inews] Exodus@DRM-dev: And criminals that can get gunshot wounds patched up without having to deal with messy insurance :p
[Sun Mar 21 20:22:14 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: but still ratified and still on par with the historical nature of today's great event
[Sun Mar 21 20:22:40 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: even evil can be great... wait, wasn't that in Harry Potter?
[Sun Mar 21 20:23:25 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: oh if you have to blame pauperism on something, don't forget the president that started a needless war of choice, and ran the tax break train straight into the ground
[Sun Mar 21 20:23:50 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: i hardly think that a bill which the cbo scored as SAVING MONEY is really a worthwhile target of that ire
[Sun Mar 21 20:24:37 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I don't recall Obama starting any wars of choice other than his war against the American people to pass this health care bill... but he did run the budget to ground and then some.
[Sun Mar 21 20:24:50 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: nonsense
[Sun Mar 21 20:25:08 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: gwb started the iraq war on false pretenses
[Sun Mar 21 20:25:18 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I'd love to see the math behind spending $900 billion that you don't have as a means to reduce deficit.
[Sun Mar 21 20:25:18 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: they had nothing to do with al qaeda
[Sun Mar 21 20:25:40 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: well the bill and the cbo score are out, go do yer homework
[Sun Mar 21 20:26:25 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: and obama's rescue plan was a bipartisan event that was necessary to make this a recession rather than a depression
[Sun Mar 21 20:26:26 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: haven't you read the constitution? Presidents can't start wars, only congress can do that, when did congress declare war against Iraq and who was in office?
[Sun Mar 21 20:26:40 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: are you saying the conflict is not a war, conner?
[Sun Mar 21 20:26:50 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: how is democrat only bipartisan?
[Sun Mar 21 20:27:19 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: i mean, if you want to be pedantic and insist, for example, that the korean war was not a war, fine
[Sun Mar 21 20:27:24 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: only if you're a democrat, Koron.
[Sun Mar 21 20:27:33 2010] [Server02:inews] Dragona@LandOfLegends: and what makes this a yea day?
[Sun Mar 21 20:27:39 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: but i dont see how picking such nits is helpful
[Sun Mar 21 20:28:06 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I happen to like some nits better than others, so I have to pick them, thank you very much.
[Sun Mar 21 20:28:20 2010] [Server02:inews] Dragona@LandOfLegends: if any thing I figure that we are all screwed now..
[Sun Mar 21 20:29:17 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: thank you, Koron, and, you're right, bipartisanship isn't the issue, it's just the point Crat raised.
[Sun Mar 21 20:30:06 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_2008
[Sun Mar 21 20:30:20 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: actually, many of us spoke out against that one too.
[Sun Mar 21 20:30:39 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: unless 75 senators were democrat, that's a bipartisan effort
[Sun Mar 21 20:30:55 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: so sorry, yer wrong
[Sun Mar 21 20:31:12 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I'm certain tht at least 75 senators were democrats who voted for this thing.
[Sun Mar 21 20:31:24 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: er, that
[Sun Mar 21 20:31:25 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: wat
[Sun Mar 21 20:31:43 2010] [Server02:inews] Kiasyn@Talon: i didnt know that
[Sun Mar 21 20:31:55 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: sorry, thought he was talking about Reps rather.
[Sun Mar 21 20:32:29 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: again though, just because the government passed it doesn't mean we wanted them to do so.
[Sun Mar 21 20:32:55 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: despite your recalcitrance, it will make this a better and stronger country
[Sun Mar 21 20:33:09 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: so it's not really about you
[Sun Mar 21 20:33:33 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: kind of like how my parents constantly bitch about paying taxes for their town schools
[Sun Mar 21 20:33:43 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: they dont have kids there, they say
[Sun Mar 21 20:33:52 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: they shouldnt have to pay taxes for that
[Sun Mar 21 20:34:01 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: well educated kinds make this a stronger country
[Sun Mar 21 20:34:07 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: so they can bitch all they want
[Sun Mar 21 20:34:16 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: but that tax is necessary and right
[Sun Mar 21 20:35:48 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: They probably shouldn't have to. It's not necessary or right to have to pay taxes to support other people, particularly when you're talking about public school educations in this country where children are taught to join gangs, use drugs, kill each other, rape one another, and so on.
[Sun Mar 21 20:36:15 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: you do understand that the government has a responsibility to protect its citizens from foreign threats, right?
[Sun Mar 21 20:36:18 2010] [Server02:inews] Dragona@LandOfLegends: it is not right.. We have to pay taxes to the school here and we homeschool.. Here a homeschool is considered a private school but i don't see anyone paying into our school... GRR
[Sun Mar 21 20:36:42 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: Having a society that's well educated would make us a stronger country if our schools went back to educating well, but they're not currently.
[Sun Mar 21 20:36:46 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: a population of ignorant, unhealthy people makes a piss poor army
[Sun Mar 21 20:37:16 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: gov MUST tax everyone for education and health, even if they bitch that they are homeschooling doctors
[Sun Mar 21 20:37:23 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: because it's not just about you
[Sun Mar 21 20:37:25 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: sorry
[Sun Mar 21 20:37:52 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: apparently you believe that local crime is a part of 'foreign threats'... I see how well public education has served you.
[Sun Mar 21 20:38:01 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: i guess you aint been listenin
[Sun Mar 21 20:38:21 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: for one thing i received a top notch public and private education, thank you very much
[Sun Mar 21 20:38:22 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: funny, I was just thinking the same thing about you.
[Sun Mar 21 20:38:38 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: for another, your snide remark ignores my point
[Sun Mar 21 20:38:53 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: you have a point?
[Sun Mar 21 20:38:54 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: a healthy, education population is vital to our national security interests
[Sun Mar 21 20:39:03 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: *educated
[Sun Mar 21 20:39:34 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: agreed, so perhaps government should be focusing on fixing the problems instead of creating new ones.
[Sun Mar 21 20:39:49 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: gov IS fixing the problem
[Sun Mar 21 20:39:57 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: no they're not
[Sun Mar 21 20:40:11 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: by stopping the foolish situation that victimizes the poor out of proper health care
[Sun Mar 21 20:40:20 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: and jacks up insurance for everyone else
[Sun Mar 21 20:40:55 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: look at it this way. the poor are getting health care right now
[Sun Mar 21 20:41:02 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: they go to the ER which has to take them
[Sun Mar 21 20:41:06 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: and they dont pay
[Sun Mar 21 20:41:16 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: yes, they're stopping the foolish situation that victimizes the poor out of proper health care by mandating that if you can't afford health care insurance you get it for free in jail.
[Sun Mar 21 20:41:18 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: but the hostpitals have to pay their electric bill somehow
[Sun Mar 21 20:41:27 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: how do the hospitals do it?
[Sun Mar 21 20:41:41 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: jacking up the price of their services to paying customers
[Sun Mar 21 20:41:45 2010] [Server02:inews] Dragona@LandOfLegends: yeah we need a healty population, so they are going to fine those that can't afford to get health insurance, oh and look the money that they could of possibly gotten health insurance with is now going to fines and if you can't pay the fines well now you are in jail getting free healthcare.. and you can be educated at home where everyone was back in the day...
[Sun Mar 21 20:41:56 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: i have actually paid $6 for one tylenol at the hospital
[Sun Mar 21 20:42:14 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: we are ALREADY paying for the poor to receive treatment
[Sun Mar 21 20:42:23 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: but in the most wasteful, unfair manner possible
[Sun Mar 21 20:42:38 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: and you waited for Obamacare to do something about it rather than protest that charge at the time, didn't you?
[Sun Mar 21 20:42:50 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: what are you saying i should have done?
[Sun Mar 21 20:43:14 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: Why do I have to be against healthcare reform because I'm against that particular bill?
[Sun Mar 21 20:43:23 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: not relied upon our government to feed you your tylenol.
[Sun Mar 21 20:43:33 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: im sorry conner that doesnt make sense
[Sun Mar 21 20:43:42 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: Conner@LandOfLegends nods in agreement to Retnur@Feltain2.
[Sun Mar 21 20:43:43 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: at no point do i expect the gov to pay for my insurance
[Sun Mar 21 20:43:48 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: quite the opposite
[Sun Mar 21 20:43:55 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: so i dont know what you're talking about
[Sun Mar 21 20:44:26 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: It's a complete kanard to say if you disagree with this unpopular bill you're against health care reform that will make us stronger and healthier.
[Sun Mar 21 20:44:50 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: retnur: that's fine. but that's why i support the bill
[Sun Mar 21 20:44:51 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: There's plenty to not like in this bill from all sides. And they could have done better.
[Sun Mar 21 20:45:03 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: That bill was a disgrace.
[Sun Mar 21 20:45:11 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: sure. but this is what we were able to get
[Sun Mar 21 20:45:12 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: And the process was a disgrace.
[Sun Mar 21 20:45:24 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: And that's why a majority of the public was against it.
[Sun Mar 21 20:45:35 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: And it's why they had to beg and plead their own majority to vote for it.
[Sun Mar 21 20:45:39 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: well if the republicans hadnt just been dicks about it, it might have been better for their concerns
[Sun Mar 21 20:45:53 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: and i disagree that most americans oppose what the bill has
[Sun Mar 21 20:45:54 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: They didn't need republicans. Just write a good bill and pass it with your majority.
[Sun Mar 21 20:46:03 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: for that same $6 you could've bought a bottle of tylenol at your local drug store, intead you paid the hospital for the one pill which sends the hospital the message that you're okay with them charging that way. Now you're in support of a bill that will send you to jail if you allow your insurance (which the folks who voted for it aren't subject to) lapse.
[Sun Mar 21 20:46:08 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: afaict when you tell them the specifics theyre like "good idea"
[Sun Mar 21 20:46:27 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: when you word it like foxnews does theyre like "no, government out of my underpants!"
[Sun Mar 21 20:47:11 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: conner, i dunno if you've ever been hospitalized
[Sun Mar 21 20:47:14 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: oh, you've read the 3000 page bill in full and shared it's specifics with others to get a non-biased poll have you?
[Sun Mar 21 20:47:30 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: but you dont always get to pick and choose what procedure and which pill you get
[Sun Mar 21 20:48:05 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: All I have to say is watch what happens this election cycle. :)
[Sun Mar 21 20:48:12 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: I'm rather happy about it.
[Sun Mar 21 20:48:13 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: saying i was wrong for paying the $6 tells me you're either really unclear on how it works, or just arguing for argument's sake
[Sun Mar 21 20:48:17 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I have, and I know my rights to refuse treatments.
[Sun Mar 21 20:48:43 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: so let me get this straight
[Sun Mar 21 20:48:57 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: in the hospital you're going to haggle over the cost of the elements of your treatment?
[Sun Mar 21 20:49:03 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: as a matter of political principle?
[Sun Mar 21 20:49:11 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: or are you just going to let the insurance pay it?
[Sun Mar 21 20:49:17 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: when a doctor tells me that he's prescibing me something I can buy myself over the counter, I go get it over the counter instead of via prescription.
[Sun Mar 21 20:49:54 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I have in the past, quite successfully actually.
[Sun Mar 21 20:50:05 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: hang on
[Sun Mar 21 20:50:10 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: do you HAVE insurance?
[Sun Mar 21 20:50:17 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: nope
[Sun Mar 21 20:50:21 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: ahhhh
[Sun Mar 21 20:50:24 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: Soon you will. Cause you'll be fined otherwise.
[Sun Mar 21 20:50:29 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I can't afford it
[Sun Mar 21 20:50:39 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: so I hear, Retnur
[Sun Mar 21 20:50:48 2010] [Server02:inews] Dragona@LandOfLegends: I do.. but i can't use it
[Sun Mar 21 20:51:22 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: well now i get it
[Sun Mar 21 20:52:40 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: What, Koron, you don't have any friends or family that could drive to the store for you to get you a bottle of tylenol while you're in the hospital potentially with internal bleeding that your trusted doctor is only prescribing tylenol for in the first place?
[Sun Mar 21 20:53:01 2010] [Server02:inews] Dragona@LandOfLegends: LOL
[Sun Mar 21 20:53:02 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: you have an extreme minority view conner
[Sun Mar 21 20:53:08 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: you know that, right?
[Sun Mar 21 20:53:14 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: n, it's precisely the point
[Sun Mar 21 20:53:47 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: that may be, Cratylus, but it's a common minority view.
[Sun Mar 21 20:54:27 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: yknow, the $6 tylenol pill wasnt even the point
[Sun Mar 21 20:54:39 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: the point was that the hospital is robbing paul to treat peter
[Sun Mar 21 20:54:51 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: i really dont think that tangent helps anything
[Sun Mar 21 20:54:57 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: Koron, if it's a scenario of it being too expensive for the alternative, doesn't that negate the situation?
[Sun Mar 21 20:55:22 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: see, he said he had a point... we finally get to it
[Sun Mar 21 20:55:35 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: the current system already gives treatment to the poor
[Sun Mar 21 20:55:38 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: the word Koron? no, I don't believe that I can.
[Sun Mar 21 20:55:39 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: at our expense
[Sun Mar 21 20:55:58 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: fixing the system so that it's done more fairly saves money and saves lives
[Sun Mar 21 20:56:01 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: Isn't the fact that this health care bill is largely payed for by taxing premium health care plans robbing paul to treat peter?
[Sun Mar 21 20:56:19 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: retnur, the cost shift already happens
[Sun Mar 21 20:56:26 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: the effort is to try to make it more fair
[Sun Mar 21 20:56:32 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: Social justice?
[Sun Mar 21 20:56:38 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: you really can't eliminate it entirely
[Sun Mar 21 20:56:43 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: well now runter
[Sun Mar 21 20:56:47 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: exactly, Retnur.
[Sun Mar 21 20:57:11 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: no, runter was someone else entirely...
[Sun Mar 21 20:57:12 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: do we really want a country where the poor die needlessly of cheaply treatable diseases?
[Sun Mar 21 20:58:04 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: do we have that currently? will this health care bill, in it's current form, address that?
[Sun Mar 21 20:58:19 2010] [Server02:inews] Kayle@MW: Retnur = Runter. Retnur is Runter backwards.
[Sun Mar 21 20:58:59 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: They should have written a better bill. I'm for healthcare reform in general. I'm even for raising taxes up front to pay for it.
[Sun Mar 21 20:59:14 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: thank you, Kayle, I wasn't aware that he'd changed his name thusly, I assumed it was someone I hadn't met before this.
[Sun Mar 21 20:59:20 2010] [Server02:inews] Dragona@LandOfLegends: no we want a country that wants our jails so full cause people can't afford healthcare that once they are there they will be getting free healthcare that yiou are paying for anyways...
[Sun Mar 21 20:59:58 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: see, Koron, that's where we differ, I'd have preferred no bill to one that's very badly written that I believe will do more harm than good.
[Sun Mar 21 21:00:12 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: harm how
[Sun Mar 21 21:00:27 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: the cbo scores it as not only debt neutral, it actually saves money
[Sun Mar 21 21:00:35 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: I think the fact the bill effectively kills medicare advantage is a bad thing.
[Sun Mar 21 21:00:35 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: so harmful how
[Sun Mar 21 21:00:38 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: well, I'd rather not see a debtor's prison in America, for a start.
[Sun Mar 21 21:00:46 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: I know multiple people who love their medicare advantage.
[Sun Mar 21 21:01:07 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: runter, sorry, but too bad.
[Sun Mar 21 21:01:15 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: Conner@LandOfLegends nods in agreement to Retnur@Feltain2.
[Sun Mar 21 21:01:23 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: as far debtor prison for not being able to afford insurance
[Sun Mar 21 21:01:28 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: that is ridiculous
[Sun Mar 21 21:01:39 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: mass. already has a similar system
[Sun Mar 21 21:01:49 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: only because it won't impact you, Crat, but again, as you said, it's not about you.
[Sun Mar 21 21:01:55 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: and it handles such situations
[Sun Mar 21 21:02:30 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: i really dont think you're arguing against the bill on its merits
[Sun Mar 21 21:02:43 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: i think you have some kind of political/philosophical problem with it
[Sun Mar 21 21:03:03 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: which is fine, but the bill itself is a good step forward
[Sun Mar 21 21:03:08 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: and i rejoice
[Sun Mar 21 21:03:08 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: again, I'll ask, ahve you actually read the whole bill? The excerpts I've seen call for jail time for those who can't/won't pay the fines for failing to buy Obamacare, even if it means having to drop their current insuance carrier first to do so.
[Sun Mar 21 21:03:17 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: jail time?
[Sun Mar 21 21:03:20 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: in the bill?
[Sun Mar 21 21:03:23 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: show me
[Sun Mar 21 21:03:37 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: sure, here, read this. *rolling his eyes*
[Sun Mar 21 21:03:44 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: you made that up
[Sun Mar 21 21:03:54 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: theres no jail time in the bill
[Sun Mar 21 21:04:04 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: either you made that up, or you drank the kool ad
[Sun Mar 21 21:04:47 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: no, I didn't make it up, it's a big part of why I'm opposed to this bill. don't know what kool aid you've got either.
[Sun Mar 21 21:04:57 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: there's no jail time in the bill
[Sun Mar 21 21:05:05 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: that is made up
[Sun Mar 21 21:05:08 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: she's trying to find you a link
[Sun Mar 21 21:05:44 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: our internet here sucks, of course the FCC is going to fix that eventually too, I suppose...
[Sun Mar 21 21:05:45 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: try to find the death panels while you're at it
[Sun Mar 21 21:06:02 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: this is why 24/7 propaganda machines are so awful
[Sun Mar 21 21:06:10 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: people just slurp it up like it's true
[Sun Mar 21 21:06:37 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: about what, Koron?
[Sun Mar 21 21:06:58 2010] [Server02:inews] Kayle@MW: I turned this channel on because I thought this was going to be a good argument.
[Sun Mar 21 21:07:16 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: i'm really kind of surprised at conner's statements
[Sun Mar 21 21:07:35 2010] [Server02:inews] Kayle@MW: The FCC has mandated that all ISPs must offer 100MBps connections by 2020? (I think...)
[Sun Mar 21 21:07:56 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: no conspiracy, the FCC just gave the plan to congress the other day, and I wasn't saying it was right either, just another example of government meddling where it doesn't belong as well.
[Sun Mar 21 21:07:57 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: it's one thing to be against elements of the bill, and the bill as a whole if you oppose enough of its elements
[Sun Mar 21 21:08:04 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: but opposing a bill for made up reasons
[Sun Mar 21 21:08:08 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: No, Kayle, that was in the UK
[Sun Mar 21 21:08:19 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: i hadnt pegged him as a full on kool aid man
[Sun Mar 21 21:08:24 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: OHH YEAHH
[Sun Mar 21 21:08:38 2010] [Server02:inews] Kayle@MW: I.. I don't know how to respond to that. XD
[Sun Mar 21 21:09:00 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: Yes we can.
[Sun Mar 21 21:09:12 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: si se puede
[Sun Mar 21 21:09:13 2010] [Server02:inews] Scoyn@SWTSW: slowly backs away through the hole in the wall that he just made and runs off down the street.
[Sun Mar 21 21:09:38 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: Hai, so deyo
[Sun Mar 21 21:10:20 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: anatawa watashimotokorode nanika nomimaska?
[Sun Mar 21 21:10:27 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: Kayle, here in the US the FCC is proposing to take bandwidth from over the air television channels (about 500Mhz) to create national broadband coverage over the next 10 years or so, if memory serves.
[Sun Mar 21 21:10:44 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: ewps *watashino
[Sun Mar 21 21:11:27 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: waitin on that jail time still btw
[Sun Mar 21 21:11:59 2010] [Server02:inews] Dragona@LandOfLegends: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/interview-with-the-president-jail-time-for-those-without-health-care-insurance.html
[Sun Mar 21 21:12:09 2010] [Server02:inews] Dragona@LandOfLegends: I was still loking for it
[Sun Mar 21 21:12:39 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: says he stopped short of endorsing it
[Sun Mar 21 21:12:40 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I was serious that our internet here sucks, I just wasn't praising the goverment for their plan to do something about it.
[Sun Mar 21 21:12:43 2010] [Server02:inews] Cratylus@Dead_Souls_Dev: and that's not the bill
[Sun Mar 21 21:13:42 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: our lag has lag, people, if you want stuff from web sites from us you've got to be patient.
[Sun Mar 21 21:14:50 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: Koron, you said the bill itself is online, you don't happen to have a link to it handy so we could skip google to find it, do you?
[Sun Mar 21 21:15:17 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: thank you
[Sun Mar 21 21:16:02 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: I'm pretty sure your search is futile, but good luck. :p
[Sun Mar 21 21:16:56 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: that's another issue all by itself
[Sun Mar 21 21:19:47 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: she's looking through the first one already
[Sun Mar 21 21:21:31 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: it says something about not more than ten years imprisonment for violating section 519 but it's a big document to have to wade through to figure out if that's the part we'd heard about or not.
[Sun Mar 21 21:22:26 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: no kidding
[Sun Mar 21 21:22:35 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: Odds are if the language was ever in the bill it's been taken out. This isn't the first revision. There's plenty of people worried about the unenforcable nature of the fines and if young people will actually get insurance or just pay the fines. (Or not pay them.)
[Sun Mar 21 21:23:44 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: it looks like you may be right, Retnur, I think we'd found it in the version from December, but we're not finding it in the senate version, so hopefully it's not in the House Reconcilliation version either anymore.
[Sun Mar 21 21:24:49 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: either way, that was just one of the biggest concerns that this huge pile of legalese presents. :(
[Sun Mar 21 21:25:39 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: no, the site we found this version (hr3590) said it was from March 18th, 2010.. maybe this was a revised version that was being sent back to the house?
[Sun Mar 21 21:26:19 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: Conner@LandOfLegends nods solemnly.
[Sun Mar 21 21:27:09 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: right, because go dknows everyone and his brother was going to be able to read this monstrosity within the 72 hours...
[Sun Mar 21 21:27:34 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: er, god knows.. bah, y'all can figure out basic typos.
[Sun Mar 21 21:27:53 2010] [Server02:inews] Retnur@Feltain2: Good thing the top occupation in the upper and lower house is lawyer. :)
[Sun Mar 21 21:28:40 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: yeah, but that word gets hyphenated between the e and the g, just ask Clinton... *snicker*
[Sun Mar 21 21:36:20 2010] [Server02:inews] Dragona@LandOfLegends: .. *sigh* I have no desire nor need to read the entire thing.. Doesn't matter anyways We are goign to be told what we 'have' to do and there is not anything we can do about it..
[Sun Mar 21 21:37:57 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: I think, Dragona and I are going to go put our kids to bed then travel to a country that's healthcare reform free, like Cyrodil. ;) (assuming I spelled that right, if not, mentally fix it yourself.)
[Sun Mar 21 21:38:13 2010] [Server02:inews] Conner@LandOfLegends: y'all have a g'nite

       
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