The Euro Game Is Up!

Wow. Someone in the EU actually gets it. Jesus, and here most of us thought they had all given up!


.........................
"It is pointless to resist, my son." -- Darth Vader
"Resistance is futile." -- The Borg
"Mother's coming for me in the dragon ships. I don't like these itchy clothes, but I have to wear them or it frightens the fish." -- Thurindil

Well. I guess that's that then.

       
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Posted on Nov 30, 2010 3:17 am by Samson in: | 96 comment(s) [Closed]
Comments
I think Nigel has long ago passed the point of caring who he insults or what their reactions are. He seems to have become genuinely frustrated with the entire EU process and is simply expressing himself in the only manner that seems to get them to listen now.

So let's ask this. If the UK woke up one morning and said "You know, fuck the EU. We're done." and then just walked away, what would happen? What could the EU possibly do about it with no military to back up it's hollow words? The EU only has power for as long as its member states willingly surrender it to them.

       
The problem is that, for whatever reason, it rather appears that months ago the UK did try to walk away and was very quietly told no. At least, that's what the second transcript I linked appears to indicate. I don't know what the EU has to back itself up with, but it's got to be something good if the UK can't leave even if it wants to.

       
Without military force to back it up, or the balls enough to impose a trade embargo, I don't see what sort of power the EU would have if ANY member state packed up and just left, telling them to go away.

Just like if, say, Texas declares secession. The only way that's going to be stopped is through military force. You can't just send diplomats over to wag fingers and say no.

       
I really don't get it either because, as far as I can tell, the EU really doesn't have any teeth, but something's going on that we haven't been made aware of or the UK would be more or less dictating to the EU what the EU could be doing at this point rather than the other way around.

       
Yay for an Englishman finally standing up to the EU dictators!

Conner said:

Hasn't there been something on the order of a half dozen dictators over the years who've tried to conquer all of Europe at one time or another? Had any of them succeeded then surely that would've had the same unifying effect but instead of them being called EU like some bizarre new symbol on the periodic table of elements, they'd have all been a single country: Roman, British, French, Italian, German, whichever...


Oi! What do you mean by that? We never had a dictator and we never invaded Europe! We did invade France once, but only because they stole the bit of France from us which we'd stolen from them previously, so they asked for it.

Mohammed said:

The EU "government" has little power, because of its confederate, not federal model. The power lies with the governments of the member states.


Mohammed is mistaken. EU government overrules national governments, forcing EU laws and regulations onto countries.

Mohammed said:

There's Euroscepticism, which is a main stream political view in Europe, and there is xenophobia, which I'm afraid mr. Farage represents here.


I completely fail to identify where you're seeing this xenophobia from that clip. He's anti-EU (a political body), not anti-foreigners (the people living in other countries).

Dallen said:

Conner: On the Mark/Euro thing: I WAS 100% Wrong and Muhemed was 100% right,

Conner said:

They say it takes a big man to admit he's wrong, Dallen


Dallen confirmed that Mohammed was right about the German mark being replaced by the Euro rather than being kept like the British pound has been kept, he wasn't admitting that everything Mohammed said is right. I don't think I've ever even seen a euro, we don't use them at all in Britain (I guess maybe in London and in some south-coast towns they might make an appearance but I live in the middle of England).

Samson said:

I wonder if that music at the end of most of the clips where the lighthouse and the circle of starts is the actual EU anthem, because if it is, it sounds disturbingly like the Russian anthem.


Yes I thought it sounded Russian too. I'm not aware of there being any EU anthem, who would decide what language it should be sung in? Songs simply don't sound the same in different languages.

Samson said:

Britain joined the EU in 1973. I'd hardly go so far as to say they don't want to be part of it since that's nearly 40 years ago now.


Might I just point out that the EU didn't exist in 1973? It's a 90's thing. Before the EU, it was more about trade agreements (and my father has often said Britain never should have joined in the first place!).
It's the political overrule from the Euro government which is the real problem, more interested in taking power from the individual countries to create their own United States of Europe so they can feel big like USA.

Conner said:

Though I will also say that I hadn't realized the EU as a whole had made things so much easier for general populace over there, as Mohammed indicates, either.


Me neither, and I live here! It might have made things easier for countries which are bordered with other countries perhaps, especially further east, but here in England, we have the sea between us and any country we're bordered with

Mohammed said:

Britain, rather than using their status as one of the four major countries in the EU to help steer things in the right direction, has usually left Germany alone against Italy and France. For example, rather than help reform the EU budget, they negotiated a rebate for themselves and generally display a "no, no, and leave me out of it" attitude.


And very wise too, more countries should have done the same. I wasn't aware though that Germany was "against" Italy and France in the EU; this implies that Germany also wants to be less under the thumb of the EU but is too afraid to "rock the boat" so just goes with the flow?

Mohammed said:

Of course it's his right to argue for the UK leaving the EU. He's in the wrong place if he wants to achieve it though - only the British parliament can make that decision.


Well, actually he's in the right place. A national political party needs to be in BOTH places, national government AND EU government, to stand a chance of achieving their goals.

Dallen said:

Yea, I think "part of " Mohammed's point was 'no one' is relinquishing their sovereignity; being as the European Parliment doesn't actually govern anything other than trade, and that by concenses of the members.


No, it also forces new laws onto countries without allowing the national government to refuse, because "EU knows best".


You're going to hear different things from different people, and different opinions from occupants of different countries. For Mohammed, living in Germany, clearly the EU is seen as a good thing, so his opinion is strongly biased towards the EU. For me, living in England (Britain/UK), I see the EU as a rising dictatorship, stealing individuality from the various countries it has managed to sucker into its control - thus my opinion is strongly biased against the EU. I don't even follow politics myself, so don't know details about much of anything, but what I do know about the EU and how it treats the UK, I don't like, and I'm surprised that other countries don't feel the same way - suggesting that the EU treats the UK differently (worse) than it does other countries.

I think the Euro was a mistake, and I'm glad the UK never joined it. Probably joining the EU was a mistake. Perhaps invading France was a mistake, Joan of Arc surely thought so. Coming down from the trees might have been a mistake too, and even crawling out of the sea to experiment with our newly evolved lungs might have been a mistake. It's too late to fix most of these mistakes, maybe too late to fix any of them?

       
IsmeldaLasombra said:
Comment #56 Dec 4, 2010 4:05 am
Living in France and hating it, I am more favorable to the EU than Vorians. I do agree with that british spokesman on every account. I think that leaving the country governements intact was a big mistake in the creation of Europe. They should have done it like in the US because now each country is becoming nationalist and with rampant poverty and the crisis where we see big kahunas getting away with tons of money after they've been fired for failure, everyone has a good incentive to vote for their extreme right wing. So nationalism go up, clever politician play on it (like Sarkozy who starts riots to make the idiots feel unsecure and force them to vote for his side), and then everyone complain about the EU of course as it is of course the source of all evil...

I'm not here to say they aren't. Just that things could have been handled better and in the end we are all screwed anyway... Well, one can only hope that the end is really near (21st December of 2012). If not the furtue doesn't look very bright does it?

       
Vorians said:

We never had a dictator and we never invaded Europe! We did invade France once, but only because they stole the bit of France from us which we'd stolen from them previously, so they asked for it.


Oliver Cromwell ring any bells? Granted, as far as I know he never actually invaded anything...but he was a dictator.

       
Vorians said:

Might I just point out that the EU didn't exist in 1973?


I was going by what I found at the official EU site. Where they claim the UK joined in 1973.

I do remember a big deal about it all being made in the mid 90s but that seems to be when many of the current member states joined up.

       
Dallen said:

Oliver Cromwell ring any bells? Granted, as far as I know he never actually invaded anything...but he was a dictator.


Ahem. We don't talk about him. Let me take those bells off you. You're right, he was a dictator :)
Anyway, Britain has only ever invaded France, and Oliver Cromwell wasn't around then.

       
Hmm, this could be fun...

Vorians said:

Oi! What do you mean by that? We never had a dictator and we never invaded Europe! We did invade France once, but only because they stole the bit of France from us which we'd stolen from them previously, so they asked for it.

dallen68 said:

Oliver Cromwell ring any bells? Granted, as far as I know he never actually invaded anything...but he was a dictator.

Vorians said:

Ahem. We don't talk about him. Let me take those bells off you. You're right, he was a dictator
Anyway, Britain has only ever invaded France, and Oliver Cromwell wasn't around then.

Since Oliver Cromwell was already mentioned... I'll ask instead about good King Edward and King George.. and aside from France, while the American Settlements weren't exactly an invasion, I suppose that Scotland came to you asking for your benevolent leadership? Perhaps we should defer to Dwip on this issue, he's the historian here after all and his degree really ought to be allowed to count for some sort of use since he put so much effort and time into getting it... ;)

Vorians said:

Mohammed said:

There's Euroscepticism, which is a main stream political view in Europe, and there is xenophobia, which I'm afraid mr. Farage represents here.

I completely fail to identify where you're seeing this xenophobia from that clip. He's anti-EU (a political body), not anti-foreigners (the people living in other countries).

Yeah, I didn't really see xenophobia in that either, but it was a minor enough point that I hadn't felt like arguing it at the time.

Vorians said:

Dallen said:

Conner: On the Mark/Euro thing: I WAS 100% Wrong and Muhemed was 100% right,

Conner said:

They say it takes a big man to admit he's wrong, Dallen

Dallen confirmed that Mohammed was right about the German mark being replaced by the Euro rather than being kept like the British pound has been kept, he wasn't admitting that everything Mohammed said is right. I don't think I've ever even seen a euro, we don't use them at all in Britain (I guess maybe in London and in some south-coast towns they might make an appearance but I live in the middle of England).

Understood, I certainly wouldn't agree that everything Mohammed said rang true and we've already argued much of it. Amazingly, I have actually seen a few euros all the way over here in America, but it was just because some family/friends had gone traveling to Europe and brought some back for collection purposes. :shrug: ...I have been to a few websites since the 90s that expressed cost in euros as well, but they usually also offer their prices in pounds and US$ as well.

Vorians said:

It's the political overrule from the Euro government which is the real problem, more interested in taking power from the individual countries to create their own United States of Europe so they can feel big like USA.

Aww, so the EU is all about USA-envy? ;)

Vorians said:

Conner said:

Though I will also say that I hadn't realized the EU as a whole had made things so much easier for general populace over there, as Mohammed indicates, either.

Me neither, and I live here! It might have made things easier for countries which are bordered with other countries perhaps, especially further east, but here in England, we have the sea between us and any country we're bordered with

Ah, but from what Mohammed has said, if you wanted to swim the English Channel, now that the EU's in place you won't have to worry about the fish or the frogs asking for your passport.. :P

Vorians said:

Well, actually he's in the right place. A national political party needs to be in BOTH places, national government AND EU government, to stand a chance of achieving their goals.

Now that makes much more sense. If the overlords, whether they have the teeth to enforce their rule or not, are to be forced to release their hold, one much lobby both sides of the fence to encourage it.

Vorians said:

I think the Euro was a mistake, and I'm glad the UK never joined it. Probably joining the EU was a mistake. Perhaps invading France was a mistake, Joan of Arc surely thought so. Coming down from the trees might have been a mistake too, and even crawling out of the sea to experiment with our newly evolved lungs might have been a mistake. It's too late to fix most of these mistakes, maybe too late to fix any of them?

I imagine parts of that were larger mistakes than others particularly for certain individuals and their familial lines... ;) Fortunately, I'm not certain that it's too late to fix even that in some cases. You'd be amazed at how far a simple outpatient procedure like vasectomy will take for some folks if caught early enough... :whistle:

IsmeldaLasombra said:

Living in France and hating it, I am more favorable to the EU than Vorians. I do agree with that british spokesman on every account. I think that leaving the country governements intact was a big mistake in the creation of Europe. They should have done it like in the US because now each country is becoming nationalist and with rampant poverty and the crisis where we see big kahunas getting away with tons of money after they've been fired for failure, everyone has a good incentive to vote for their extreme right wing. So nationalism go up, clever politician play on it (like Sarkozy who starts riots to make the idiots feel unsecure and force them to vote for his side), and then everyone complain about the EU of course as it is of course the source of all evil...

I'm not here to say they aren't. Just that things could have been handled better and in the end we are all screwed anyway... Well, one can only hope that the end is really near (21st December of 2012). If not the furtue doesn't look very bright does it?

I am sorry that you're living in France, perhaps things will change for the better soonish and you'll be able to find yourself living some place nicer... Though I'm not sure why that would make you more predisposed to the EU than Vorians. :huh:

How'd we do it over here in the US? We weren't starting with multiple countries and each of our states still has it's own government fully intact with powers over everything the Feds don't appropriate for themselves. :thinking:

Sadly, we've seen golden parachutes in operation since the 80s over here. Rampant poverty is becoming more of a problem here daily under the gentle influence of Obama, but it's been a problem here in general for ages. :sad:

The EU isn't the source of all evil? :surprised:

I don't know about the 12/21/12 thing, currently I'm kinda waiting for 11/12/12 to come and bring some drastic improvements to my own life and only having a month to enjoy them after a couple of years of waiting would sort of suck, but, overall, I have to agree that I'm certainly not wearing shades because of how bright the future looks these days.


:snicker:

       
I have a 50 Euro bill around here somewhere that I let someone pay me for MUD hosting with, so I could add it to my coin/currency collection. She didn't want to use Paypal for some odd reason and hey, I've never seen a Euro in any for before or since.

       
:nod: Euro's really are pretty rare over here, but honestly, other than my own travels and the fact that I and a few relatives/friends collect currency, I can't say that I expect I'd have ever seen much of any foreign currency here beyond some Canadian coins every now and then and a Mexican coin even less frequently. Bet there's a reason for that. ;)

       
Conner said:


Since Oliver Cromwell was already mentioned... I'll ask instead about good King Edward and King George.. and aside from France, while the American Settlements weren't exactly an invasion, I suppose that Scotland came to you asking for your benevolent leadership?


You'll really need to a little more specific. Do you refer to King Edward I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, or VIII? And King George I, II, III, IV, V or VI? Anyway I don't remember my history lessons from school, so I'll rely on Dwip too. We never invaded America! We (along with a number of other European nations) colonised it. And then those ungrateful layabouts (your ancestors, presumably) refused to pay our inflated taxes! Such a waste of good tea... And I'm entirely unaware of any invasion of Scotland (based on my aforementioned good memory of school history lessons). Even the Romans didn't much care for Scotland (probably too cold, and nowhere to lay their nice straight roads - they just built a nice long wall to keep them out of England). Sure, we've had a few wars with Scotland (and France), but invasion? Scotland is independent anyway, they've got their own parliament (now). Another piece of the once great British Empire thrown away to the local natives.

Conner said:


Ah, but from what Mohammed has said, if you wanted to swim the English Channel, now that the EU's in place you won't have to worry about the fish or the frogs asking for your passport..


Sure, the fish and the frogs won't ask for your passport, but the English will! (probably - I believe that if you arrive by plane or boat you'll need your passport ready, but if you come by train you might not - ask Ismelda, she's visited England before). I know I needed a passport when as a child I visited France and Italy, but that was in the early 90s.

Conner said:


How'd we do it over here in the US?


You threw the tea in the bloody harbour!!!

       
I think we only cared about the specific King George that was trying to gouge us on our taxes without us getting a say in how they were spent.

Also, I'm no history buff, but I recall there being this small thing called the War of 1812 where the British not only invaded, they burned our capital. Yes, Canadians, you didn't exist as a nation yet when you did it.

       
Vorians said:

You'll really need to a little more specific. Do you refer to King Edward I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, or VIII? And King George I, II, III, IV, V or VI? Anyway I don't remember my history lessons from school, so I'll rely on Dwip too. We never invaded America! We (along with a number of other European nations) colonised it. And then those ungrateful layabouts (your ancestors, presumably) refused to pay our inflated taxes! Such a waste of good tea... And I'm entirely unaware of any invasion of Scotland (based on my aforementioned good memory of school history lessons). Even the Romans didn't much care for Scotland (probably too cold, and nowhere to lay their nice straight roads - they just built a nice long wall to keep them out of England). Sure, we've had a few wars with Scotland (and France), but invasion? Scotland is independent anyway, they've got their own parliament (now). Another piece of the once great British Empire thrown away to the local natives.

King Edward I, he was lovingly referred to as Longshanks in the movie Braveheart. Perhaps he wasn't such a terrible dictator in your history books, but being Jewish, I tend to frown upon his reign...

Yes, as Samson correctly points out, I was referring to King George III that reigned during the American Revolution.

I did say that it wasn't exactly an invasion in the case of the American Colonies, but the British did try to "retake" colonies that hadn't begun as theirs too, so I imagine the French and Spanish and Dutch felt a bit like the Brits had invaded at the time. And, Samson has a very valid point regarding the War of 1812 as well...

(Not my ancestors, I'm a much more recent import than that, my grandparents came here from Russia (well, Kiev, so the Ukraine actually), Wales, Poland, and Czechoslovakia around 1900. :shrug:)

As for Scotland, reviewing the summation of history on wikipedia I was probably really thinking more of Ireland than Scotland, but I imagine William the Lion would've disagreed that Scotland was willingly part of England. As for being independent and having their own parliament, I think the Scots still consider themselves to be somewhat unwilling servants of (or at least second class citizens of) England, just ask Sir Sean Connery... ;)

Vorians said:

Sure, the fish and the frogs won't ask for your passport, but the English will! (probably - I believe that if you arrive by plane or boat you'll need your passport ready, but if you come by train you might not - ask Ismelda, she's visited England before). I know I needed a passport when as a child I visited France and Italy, but that was in the early 90s.

I was using frogs as a pejorative that I thought you'd pick up on... but perhaps we'll await Ismelda's input on this one. As for your needing a passport for travel out of England, was that before the EU opened the borders between European countries?

Vorians said:

Conner said:

How'd we do it over here in the US?

You threw the tea in the bloody harbour!!!

:lol: Well, yes, we did, but that's not what I was asking about, I was responding to:
IsmeldaLasombra said:

They should have done it like in the US because now each country is becoming nationalist and with rampant poverty and the crisis where we see big kahunas getting away with tons of money after they've been fired for failure, everyone has a good incentive to vote for their extreme right wing.

       
Edited by Samson on Sep 27, 2011 2:32 pm
Mohammed [Anon] said:
Comment #66 Dec 7, 2010 4:03 am
Also, I'm no history buff, but I recall there being this small thing called the War of 1812 where the British not only invaded, they burned our capital. Yes, Canadians, you didn't exist as a nation yet when you did it.


Luckily mrs. Mohammed is a history buff. The war of 1812 started with an US invasion into Canada.

Quoting Thomas Jefferson (according to Wikipedia) :
"The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching, and will give us the experience for the attack on Halifax, the next and final expulsion of England from the American continent."

The assumption was that US forces would be greeted as liberators by English speaking Canadians. When this didn't materialize, and the British navy unexpectedly wasn't urgently needed back home once Napoleon's forces were committing suicide at the gates of Moscow, the war took an unfortunate turn, and Washington saw some burning.

Alas, history has a way of repeating itself if we don't learn from it. Foreign invaders, no matter how good their intentions, and how bad those of the local rulers are, are rarely seen as liberators

Ironically, an historical exception was the other war of 1812, which ultimately resulted in Russian forces liberating the French from their dictator, though what might have helped was the fact that the Russians were quite taken with Paris and didn't break anything.

       
Thanks Mohammed, I was also just about to point out that it was the Americans doing the invading in 1812 :) I did have to look the year up to find out however, I've never heard of this war before.
USA declared war on Britain, then USA invaded Canada. It was only after two years of the war, when Britain defeated the frog (Napoleon) that Britain became more aggressive in the 1812 war and Washington was captured and burnt. Isn't history fun? I'll have forgotten all of this by the time I've reached my bed tonight.

Conner said:

As for Scotland, reviewing the summation of history on wikipedia I was probably really thinking more of Ireland than Scotland, but I imagine William the Lion would've disagreed that Scotland was willingly part of England. As for being independent and having their own parliament, I think the Scots still consider themselves to be somewhat unwilling servants of (or at least second class citizens of) England, just ask Sir Sean Connery...


Well any Scot who thinks that is a little strange, if you ask me. England's last Prime Minister was Scottish, by the way.
I'm quite sure that England has never invaded Ireland. I think you're probably mixing colonising with invading, they're two completely different things.

       
Well any Scot who thinks that is a little strange, if you ask me. England's last Prime Minister was Scottish, by the way.


And, on that point-technically, it was the Scots that unified the kingdoms of Scotland and England, with the ascesion of James VI to the English throne (1649). After that, I don't think there's been a single actual English monarch (the current one being German).

       
Typical - you all seem to be forgetting why we started that war to begin with. Kidnapping our merchants and forcing them to serve in the British Navy wasn't cool. We were even winning until poor Napolean got his butt kicked and the British Navy showed up to deliver pain.

The real irony though is that this war ended up making us all best friends after it was over. So it should be seen as a good thing.

       
Maybe if that war never happened America and Britain would be sworn enemies...or maybe not.

       
Vorians said:

I think you're probably mixing colonising with invading, they're two completely different things.

Not to the existing natives. :P

Samson said:

Typical - you all seem to be forgetting why we started that war to begin with. Kidnapping our merchants and forcing them to serve in the British Navy wasn't cool. We were even winning until poor Napolean got his butt kicked and the British Navy showed up to deliver pain.

Interesting way of putting it, but, essentially what I learned as well.

prettyfly said:

Maybe if that war never happened America and Britain would be sworn enemies...or maybe not.

Who knows, and maybe the British would still be using Australia as a prison colony too. ;)

       
Samson said:

Kidnapping our merchants and forcing them to serve in the British Navy wasn't cool. We were even winning until poor Napolean got his butt kicked and the British Navy


Yeah thanks for those men, we might not have beaten Napoleon without those extra soldiers.

Conner said:

Not to the existing natives.


The savages? Well, their opinions are too primitive to be considered :whistle:

Conner said:

Who knows, and maybe the British would still be using Australia as a prison colony too.


Ah the good old days... I was telling Elminster (now living in Australia) just the other day that we should go back to sending our criminals to Australia since there's still so much empty space going to waste. This would empty out our overcrowded prisons so that we can put more criminals in them!

       
So glad that we could help you beat Napoleon with our unwilling contribution of extra sailors, they were truly impressed into service... :P

Um, yeah, those are the ones and that's the very attitude that qualifies it as invasion. :sigh:

Hey, and once you've got all that extra space in the prisons again, maybe you can bring back full debtor's prison too? ;)

       
Mohammed [Anon] said:
Comment #74 Dec 8, 2010 12:54 pm
Now I always thought Napoleon was defeated because his invasion of Russia cost him half a million men and the control over Prussia.

       

Ah the good old days... I was telling Elminster (now living in Australia) just the other day that we should go back to sending our criminals to Australia since there's still so much empty space going to waste. This would empty out our overcrowded prisons so that we can put more criminals in them!


Sure. Just make sure you put them in the desert though, because we're actually running short on space that has a comfortable enough climate for a 'free person' to actually want to live in.

       
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